[Advaita-l] [advaitin] request for PTB support for DSV and EJV

[V Subrahmanian]

On Fri, Jan 16, 2026 at 4:40 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Subbuji
> Can we say that in mainstream advaita paramparā where DSV is a valid
> prakriyā, the adhyāsa ‘sequence’ whereby different upādhis are mentioned,
> is explained as
> Ātmā —> viṣayī —> roles of use of mind and body in Jagat (pramātā)
>
> Whereas the counterpoint is (as per SSSS)
> Ātmā —> roles of use of mind and body and experience of Jagat (pramātā)
>
> In the latter view, we cannot talk of viṣayitva upādhi  without mind and
> body and Jagat already being there or taken for granted. So only SDV is
> permissible, while in the former, DSV is tenable.
>

Dear Raghav ji,

In my understanding, SSS school does not go with SDV too; for them it's
straightaway adhyasa. The jiva is adhyaropa who later undergoes apavada. No
jivanmukti, etc.

regards
subbu

>
>
> Om
> Raghav
>
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2026 at 8:18 AM, V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Dear Michael ji,
> >
> > It's the vishayitva upalakshita Atman that's finally upheld by Shankara
> in
> > the Adhyasa Bhashyam. In other words Vishayitvam is superposed,
> adhyaropa,
> > on Atman and negated. Without doing this it's impossible for Shankara or
> > the Upanishads to teach the true nature of the Atman. In that method it's
> > the DSV alone and not SDV that helps Shankara. That's the reason why
> > Shankara doesn't quote a single creation passage of the Upanishads.
> *That's
> > the sole undeniable proof of Shankara subscribing to the DSV EJV.
> Gaudapada
> > too adopted this. The Bhagavadgita 2nd and 13th chapters are indeed this.
> > The DSV EJV is rooted in the Upanishads.*
> >
> > Regards
> > subbu
> >
> > On Fri, 16 Jan, 2026, 2:54 am Michael Chandra Cohen, <
> > michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Namaste Raja Krishnamurti,
> > > Unless I'm misunderstanding, you are saying the same thing as the
> Adhaysa
> > > Bhasya quote, am I right?
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 3:34 PM Raja Krishnamurti via Advaita-l <
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Also I do have to add: The Self is not absence of knowing; it is
> beyond
> > >> thoughts and action such as knowing. Anbsence of knowing is Ajnana and
> > >> different from the realized state.With Prem,Raja Krishnamurti
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thursday, January 15, 2026, 12:30 PM, Raja Krishnamurti via
> > Advaita-l <
> > >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hari Om, Michael ji, One of the fundamental point in Vedanta is that
> > >> objects like mind, body and intellect are superimposed - adhyaropa on
> > the
> > >> substratum - Brahman. As per your statement ‘In addition, without
> > >> superimposing a notion of Self (anadhyasta ātmabhāva) on the body, one
> > >> could not be doing any action. This statement is very much and differs
> > from
> > >> Advaitha. According to Advaitha, Self alone exists and unreality of
> body
> > >> thought and mind as related to action is super imposed on the Atman
> also
> > >> known as Brahman. With Om and Prem,Raja Krishnamurti
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thursday, January 15, 2026, 11:54 AM, Michael Chandra Cohen via
> > >> Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Namaste Subbu ji,
> > >> There is no doubt avidya in some form must be taken for granted for
> the
> > >> teaching to be relevant. It is as you say,  "So, If the I's relation
> > with
> > >> the not-I is not demonstrated, there is no way the discourse takes
> off."
> > >> The issue however is the falsification of vishayi that you say will
> > result
> > >> in shunyavada, "Even when the adhyaropa world of body mind and all the
> > >> bondage is negated, apavada, the entity is not negated; only its
> > 'subject'
> > >> label is negated. If that's done, then it would be no different from
> > >> shunyavada, which Shankara terms nairātmya vada.
> > >>
> > >> However, here is Shankara in Adhyasa Bhasya negated all vishayitvam as
> > >> avidya without implication of shunyatvam
> > >>
> > >> "We explain (*ucyate*) (listen). *“He who does not have any
> > identification
> > >> such as ‘me’ or ‘mine’ (aha**ṃ mama abhimāna rahita) in the body,
> senses
> > >> etc., cannot be a knower (pramāt**ṛ). Thus, it is incongruous to say
> the
> > >> means of knowledge (pramā**ṇa) such as direct observation and others
> > >> (pratyakṣādī) function in him (who is not a pramāt**ṛ). That is,
> without
> > >> the assumption of senses (indriya-s) there could not be any
> > >> pramā**ṇa-pramēya
> > >> vyavahāra since the senses cannot transact without their substratum
> > >> (adhiṣ**ṭhāna,
> > >> the body). In addition, without superimposing a notion of Self
> > (anadhyasta
> > >> ātmabhāva) on the body, one could not be doing any action. Moreover,
> > >> without a knower (pramāt**ṛ) the pramā**ṇa-s do not function.
> Therefore,
> > >> the means of knowledge such as direct observation and others
> > (pratyakṣādī)
> > >> are objects of the ignorant* But, even in the Adhyasa Bhasya Shankara
> > >> states,  "
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 11:32 AM V Subrahmanian <
> > v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
> > >> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Dear Michael ji,
> > >> >
> > >> > Shankara starts with the experience everyone has: I am so and so,
> etc.
> > >> > This will go only if the discourse that is aimed at removing it is
> > first
> > >> > put in place. That is the adhyāropa.  So, If the I's relation with
> the
> > >> > not-I is not demonstrated, there is no way the discourse takes off.
> > The
> > >> > known bound state has to be taken up to the unknown ever-free state.
> > For
> > >> > this, all the discourse is essential. Shankara makes it so perfect.
> > >> >
> > >> > //The challenge is that a bhavarupa avidya isn't subject to
> > >> falsification
> > >> > by knowledge - only an error can be falsified - therefore, it
> doesn't
> > >> work
> > >> > as a provisional teaching. That is SSS's reasoning..//
> > >> >
> > >> > This is the fundamental, monumental misconception on the part of
> SSS.
> > >> No
> > >> > one ever has said that the bhavarupa avidya is equivalent to
> Brahman.
> > >> >
> > >> > warm regards
> > >> > subbu
> > >> >
> > >> > On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 4:37 PM Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l
> <
> > >> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> namaste Subbuji,
> > >> >> isn't vishayi namarupa? why would there be sunya is namarupa is
> > >> dispelled
> > >> >> and nitya-shuddha-buddha-mukta-svarupa re-mains? vishaya/vishayi
> are
> > >> >> correlative terms, and if the object (vishaya) is negated, the
> > subject
> > >> >> (vishayi) must also be negated <AI finished this sentence for me
> > >> >> unrequested - even AI knows the truth of that last sentence :) >
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Chat can be long winded. All is agreed in your Chat response. The
> > >> >> challenge
> > >> >> is that a bhavarupa avidya isn't subject to falsification by
> > knowledge
> > >> -
> > >> >> only an error can be falsified - therefore, it doesn't work as a
> > >> >> provisional teaching. That is SSS's reasoning..
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I'd like to propose an experiment: would you copy my last response
> > into
> > >> >> your chat and request a refutation? Given our discussion about how
> AI
> > >> >> responses can be shaped by user framing, I'm curious to see what
> > >> >> alternative perspective it might offer.
> > >> >> Regards, michael
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 5:19 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
> > >> >> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > Namaste Raghav ji.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >> The merger of prANa (and everything else)  in sushupti is
> accepted
> > >> by
> > >> >> even
> > >> >> >>  SSSS. (Notwithstanding the fact that it’s sabīja and not
> nirbīja
> > >> as
> > >> >> per
> > >> >> >>  mainstream Vedanta.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> If the “merger of prANa” is the distinctive characteristic of
> DSV,
> > >> we
> > >> >> have
> > >> >> >>  to say SSSS unwittingly accepts DSV !)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > I find SSSS ji to self-contradict himself. So, it is no surprise.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Regards.
> > >> >> > Sudhanshu Shekhar.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > --
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> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAH9%3D%2BBA5jJmVC0%2BcF_SEhD-TvVu0YWo_NFNk8fWcvPZ9zfxOxg%40mail.gmail.com
> > >> >> > <
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAH9%3D%2BBA5jJmVC0%2BcF_SEhD-TvVu0YWo_NFNk8fWcvPZ9zfxOxg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > .
> > >> >> >
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