[Advaita-l] [advaitin] request for PTB support for DSV and EJV

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Namaste Subbuji
Can we say that in mainstream advaita paramparā where DSV is a valid
prakriyā, the adhyāsa ‘sequence’ whereby different upādhis are mentioned,
is explained as
Ātmā —> viṣayī —> roles of use of mind and body in Jagat (pramātā)

Whereas the counterpoint is (as per SSSS)
Ātmā —> roles of use of mind and body and experience of Jagat (pramātā)

In the latter view, we cannot talk of viṣayitva upādhi  without mind and
body and Jagat already being there or taken for granted. So only SDV is
permissible, while in the former, DSV is tenable.


Om
Raghav

On Fri, 16 Jan 2026 at 8:18 AM, V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Dear Michael ji,
>
> It's the vishayitva upalakshita Atman that's finally upheld by Shankara in
> the Adhyasa Bhashyam. In other words Vishayitvam is superposed, adhyaropa,
> on Atman and negated. Without doing this it's impossible for Shankara or
> the Upanishads to teach the true nature of the Atman. In that method it's
> the DSV alone and not SDV that helps Shankara. That's the reason why
> Shankara doesn't quote a single creation passage of the Upanishads. *That's
> the sole undeniable proof of Shankara subscribing to the DSV EJV. Gaudapada
> too adopted this. The Bhagavadgita 2nd and 13th chapters are indeed this.
> The DSV EJV is rooted in the Upanishads.*
>
> Regards
> subbu
>
> On Fri, 16 Jan, 2026, 2:54 am Michael Chandra Cohen, <
> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Namaste Raja Krishnamurti,
> > Unless I'm misunderstanding, you are saying the same thing as the Adhaysa
> > Bhasya quote, am I right?
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 3:34 PM Raja Krishnamurti via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Also I do have to add: The Self is not absence of knowing; it is beyond
> >> thoughts and action such as knowing. Anbsence of knowing is Ajnana and
> >> different from the realized state.With Prem,Raja Krishnamurti
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thursday, January 15, 2026, 12:30 PM, Raja Krishnamurti via
> Advaita-l <
> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hari Om, Michael ji, One of the fundamental point in Vedanta is that
> >> objects like mind, body and intellect are superimposed - adhyaropa on
> the
> >> substratum - Brahman. As per your statement ‘In addition, without
> >> superimposing a notion of Self (anadhyasta ātmabhāva) on the body, one
> >> could not be doing any action. This statement is very much and differs
> from
> >> Advaitha. According to Advaitha, Self alone exists and unreality of body
> >> thought and mind as related to action is super imposed on the Atman also
> >> known as Brahman. With Om and Prem,Raja Krishnamurti
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thursday, January 15, 2026, 11:54 AM, Michael Chandra Cohen via
> >> Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Namaste Subbu ji,
> >> There is no doubt avidya in some form must be taken for granted for the
> >> teaching to be relevant. It is as you say,  "So, If the I's relation
> with
> >> the not-I is not demonstrated, there is no way the discourse takes off."
> >> The issue however is the falsification of vishayi that you say will
> result
> >> in shunyavada, "Even when the adhyaropa world of body mind and all the
> >> bondage is negated, apavada, the entity is not negated; only its
> 'subject'
> >> label is negated. If that's done, then it would be no different from
> >> shunyavada, which Shankara terms nairātmya vada.
> >>
> >> However, here is Shankara in Adhyasa Bhasya negated all vishayitvam as
> >> avidya without implication of shunyatvam
> >>
> >> "We explain (*ucyate*) (listen). *“He who does not have any
> identification
> >> such as ‘me’ or ‘mine’ (aha**ṃ mama abhimāna rahita) in the body, senses
> >> etc., cannot be a knower (pramāt**ṛ). Thus, it is incongruous to say the
> >> means of knowledge (pramā**ṇa) such as direct observation and others
> >> (pratyakṣādī) function in him (who is not a pramāt**ṛ). That is, without
> >> the assumption of senses (indriya-s) there could not be any
> >> pramā**ṇa-pramēya
> >> vyavahāra since the senses cannot transact without their substratum
> >> (adhiṣ**ṭhāna,
> >> the body). In addition, without superimposing a notion of Self
> (anadhyasta
> >> ātmabhāva) on the body, one could not be doing any action. Moreover,
> >> without a knower (pramāt**ṛ) the pramā**ṇa-s do not function. Therefore,
> >> the means of knowledge such as direct observation and others
> (pratyakṣādī)
> >> are objects of the ignorant* But, even in the Adhyasa Bhasya Shankara
> >> states,  "
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 11:32 AM V Subrahmanian <
> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
> >> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Dear Michael ji,
> >> >
> >> > Shankara starts with the experience everyone has: I am so and so, etc.
> >> > This will go only if the discourse that is aimed at removing it is
> first
> >> > put in place. That is the adhyāropa.  So, If the I's relation with the
> >> > not-I is not demonstrated, there is no way the discourse takes off.
> The
> >> > known bound state has to be taken up to the unknown ever-free state.
> For
> >> > this, all the discourse is essential. Shankara makes it so perfect.
> >> >
> >> > //The challenge is that a bhavarupa avidya isn't subject to
> >> falsification
> >> > by knowledge - only an error can be falsified - therefore, it doesn't
> >> work
> >> > as a provisional teaching. That is SSS's reasoning..//
> >> >
> >> > This is the fundamental, monumental misconception on the part of SSS.
> >> No
> >> > one ever has said that the bhavarupa avidya is equivalent to Brahman.
> >> >
> >> > warm regards
> >> > subbu
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 4:37 PM Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l <
> >> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> namaste Subbuji,
> >> >> isn't vishayi namarupa? why would there be sunya is namarupa is
> >> dispelled
> >> >> and nitya-shuddha-buddha-mukta-svarupa re-mains? vishaya/vishayi are
> >> >> correlative terms, and if the object (vishaya) is negated, the
> subject
> >> >> (vishayi) must also be negated <AI finished this sentence for me
> >> >> unrequested - even AI knows the truth of that last sentence :) >
> >> >>
> >> >> Chat can be long winded. All is agreed in your Chat response. The
> >> >> challenge
> >> >> is that a bhavarupa avidya isn't subject to falsification by
> knowledge
> >> -
> >> >> only an error can be falsified - therefore, it doesn't work as a
> >> >> provisional teaching. That is SSS's reasoning..
> >> >>
> >> >> I'd like to propose an experiment: would you copy my last response
> into
> >> >> your chat and request a refutation? Given our discussion about how AI
> >> >> responses can be shaped by user framing, I'm curious to see what
> >> >> alternative perspective it might offer.
> >> >> Regards, michael
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 5:19 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
> >> >> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Namaste Raghav ji.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> The merger of prANa (and everything else)  in sushupti is accepted
> >> by
> >> >> even
> >> >> >>  SSSS. (Notwithstanding the fact that it’s sabīja and not  nirbīja
> >> as
> >> >> per
> >> >> >>  mainstream Vedanta.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If the “merger of prANa” is the distinctive characteristic of DSV,
> >> we
> >> >> have
> >> >> >>  to say SSSS unwittingly accepts DSV !)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I find SSSS ji to self-contradict himself. So, it is no surprise.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Regards.
> >> >> > Sudhanshu Shekhar.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
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> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
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> >> >> > <
> >> >>
> >>
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> >> >> >
> >> >> > .
> >> >> >
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