[Advaita-l] [advaitin] request for PTB support for DSV and EJV

[Michael Chandra Cohen]

Namaste Raja Krishnamurti,
Unless I'm misunderstanding, you are saying the same thing as the Adhaysa
Bhasya quote, am I right?

On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 3:34 PM Raja Krishnamurti via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Also I do have to add: The Self is not absence of knowing; it is beyond
> thoughts and action such as knowing. Anbsence of knowing is Ajnana and
> different from the realized state.With Prem,Raja Krishnamurti
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, January 15, 2026, 12:30 PM, Raja Krishnamurti via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> Hari Om, Michael ji, One of the fundamental point in Vedanta is that
> objects like mind, body and intellect are superimposed - adhyaropa on the
> substratum - Brahman. As per your statement ‘In addition, without
> superimposing a notion of Self (anadhyasta ātmabhāva) on the body, one
> could not be doing any action. This statement is very much and differs from
> Advaitha. According to Advaitha, Self alone exists and unreality of body
> thought and mind as related to action is super imposed on the Atman also
> known as Brahman. With Om and Prem,Raja Krishnamurti
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, January 15, 2026, 11:54 AM, Michael Chandra Cohen via
> Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>
> Namaste Subbu ji,
> There is no doubt avidya in some form must be taken for granted for the
> teaching to be relevant. It is as you say,  "So, If the I's relation with
> the not-I is not demonstrated, there is no way the discourse takes off."
> The issue however is the falsification of vishayi that you say will result
> in shunyavada, "Even when the adhyaropa world of body mind and all the
> bondage is negated, apavada, the entity is not negated; only its 'subject'
> label is negated. If that's done, then it would be no different from
> shunyavada, which Shankara terms nairātmya vada.
>
> However, here is Shankara in Adhyasa Bhasya negated all vishayitvam as
> avidya without implication of shunyatvam
>
> "We explain (*ucyate*) (listen). *“He who does not have any identification
> such as ‘me’ or ‘mine’ (aha**ṃ mama abhimāna rahita) in the body, senses
> etc., cannot be a knower (pramāt**ṛ). Thus, it is incongruous to say the
> means of knowledge (pramā**ṇa) such as direct observation and others
> (pratyakṣādī) function in him (who is not a pramāt**ṛ). That is, without
> the assumption of senses (indriya-s) there could not be any
> pramā**ṇa-pramēya
> vyavahāra since the senses cannot transact without their substratum
> (adhiṣ**ṭhāna,
> the body). In addition, without superimposing a notion of Self (anadhyasta
> ātmabhāva) on the body, one could not be doing any action. Moreover,
> without a knower (pramāt**ṛ) the pramā**ṇa-s do not function. Therefore,
> the means of knowledge such as direct observation and others (pratyakṣādī)
> are objects of the ignorant* But, even in the Adhyasa Bhasya Shankara
> states,  "
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 11:32 AM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Michael ji,
> >
> > Shankara starts with the experience everyone has: I am so and so, etc.
> > This will go only if the discourse that is aimed at removing it is first
> > put in place. That is the adhyāropa.  So, If the I's relation with the
> > not-I is not demonstrated, there is no way the discourse takes off. The
> > known bound state has to be taken up to the unknown ever-free state. For
> > this, all the discourse is essential. Shankara makes it so perfect.
> >
> > //The challenge is that a bhavarupa avidya isn't subject to falsification
> > by knowledge - only an error can be falsified - therefore, it doesn't
> work
> > as a provisional teaching. That is SSS's reasoning..//
> >
> > This is the fundamental, monumental misconception on the part of SSS.  No
> > one ever has said that the bhavarupa avidya is equivalent to Brahman.
> >
> > warm regards
> > subbu
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 4:37 PM Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >> namaste Subbuji,
> >> isn't vishayi namarupa? why would there be sunya is namarupa is
> dispelled
> >> and nitya-shuddha-buddha-mukta-svarupa re-mains? vishaya/vishayi are
> >> correlative terms, and if the object (vishaya) is negated, the subject
> >> (vishayi) must also be negated <AI finished this sentence for me
> >> unrequested - even AI knows the truth of that last sentence :) >
> >>
> >> Chat can be long winded. All is agreed in your Chat response. The
> >> challenge
> >> is that a bhavarupa avidya isn't subject to falsification by knowledge -
> >> only an error can be falsified - therefore, it doesn't work as a
> >> provisional teaching. That is SSS's reasoning..
> >>
> >> I'd like to propose an experiment: would you copy my last response into
> >> your chat and request a refutation? Given our discussion about how AI
> >> responses can be shaped by user framing, I'm curious to see what
> >> alternative perspective it might offer.
> >> Regards, michael
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 5:19 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
> >> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Namaste Raghav ji.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> The merger of prANa (and everything else)  in sushupti is accepted by
> >> even
> >> >>  SSSS. (Notwithstanding the fact that it’s sabīja and not  nirbīja as
> >> per
> >> >>  mainstream Vedanta.
> >> >>
> >> >> If the “merger of prANa” is the distinctive characteristic of DSV, we
> >> have
> >> >>  to say SSSS unwittingly accepts DSV !)
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > I find SSSS ji to self-contradict himself. So, it is no surprise.
> >> >
> >> > Regards.
> >> > Sudhanshu Shekhar.
> >> >
> >> > --
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> >> >
> >>
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> >> > <
> >>
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