[Advaita-l] [advaitin] request for PTB support for DSV and EJV

[Raja Krishnamurti]

Also I do have to add: The Self is not absence of knowing; it is beyond thoughts and action such as knowing. Anbsence of knowing is Ajnana and different from the realized state.With Prem,Raja Krishnamurti


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On Thursday, January 15, 2026, 12:30 PM, Raja Krishnamurti via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

Hari Om, Michael ji, One of the fundamental point in Vedanta is that objects like mind, body and intellect are superimposed - adhyaropa on the substratum - Brahman. As per your statement ‘In addition, without superimposing a notion of Self (anadhyasta ātmabhāva) on the body, one could not be doing any action. This statement is very much and differs from Advaitha. According to Advaitha, Self alone exists and unreality of body thought and mind as related to action is super imposed on the Atman also known as Brahman. With Om and Prem,Raja Krishnamurti


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On Thursday, January 15, 2026, 11:54 AM, Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:


Namaste Subbu ji,
There is no doubt avidya in some form must be taken for granted for the
teaching to be relevant. It is as you say,  "So, If the I's relation with
the not-I is not demonstrated, there is no way the discourse takes off."
The issue however is the falsification of vishayi that you say will result
in shunyavada, "Even when the adhyaropa world of body mind and all the
bondage is negated, apavada, the entity is not negated; only its 'subject'
label is negated. If that's done, then it would be no different from
shunyavada, which Shankara terms nairātmya vada.

However, here is Shankara in Adhyasa Bhasya negated all vishayitvam as
avidya without implication of shunyatvam

"We explain (*ucyate*) (listen). *“He who does not have any identification
such as ‘me’ or ‘mine’ (aha**ṃ mama abhimāna rahita) in the body, senses
etc., cannot be a knower (pramāt**ṛ). Thus, it is incongruous to say the
means of knowledge (pramā**ṇa) such as direct observation and others
(pratyakṣādī) function in him (who is not a pramāt**ṛ). That is, without
the assumption of senses (indriya-s) there could not be any pramā**ṇa-pramēya
vyavahāra since the senses cannot transact without their substratum
(adhiṣ**ṭhāna,
the body). In addition, without superimposing a notion of Self (anadhyasta
ātmabhāva) on the body, one could not be doing any action. Moreover,
without a knower (pramāt**ṛ) the pramā**ṇa-s do not function. Therefore,
the means of knowledge such as direct observation and others (pratyakṣādī)
are objects of the ignorant* But, even in the Adhyasa Bhasya Shankara
states,  "



On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 11:32 AM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Michael ji,
>
> Shankara starts with the experience everyone has: I am so and so, etc.
> This will go only if the discourse that is aimed at removing it is first
> put in place. That is the adhyāropa.  So, If the I's relation with the
> not-I is not demonstrated, there is no way the discourse takes off. The
> known bound state has to be taken up to the unknown ever-free state. For
> this, all the discourse is essential. Shankara makes it so perfect.
>
> //The challenge is that a bhavarupa avidya isn't subject to falsification
> by knowledge - only an error can be falsified - therefore, it doesn't work
> as a provisional teaching. That is SSS's reasoning..//
>
> This is the fundamental, monumental misconception on the part of SSS.  No
> one ever has said that the bhavarupa avidya is equivalent to Brahman.
>
> warm regards
> subbu
>
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 4:37 PM Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> namaste Subbuji,
>> isn't vishayi namarupa? why would there be sunya is namarupa is dispelled
>> and nitya-shuddha-buddha-mukta-svarupa re-mains? vishaya/vishayi are
>> correlative terms, and if the object (vishaya) is negated, the subject
>> (vishayi) must also be negated <AI finished this sentence for me
>> unrequested - even AI knows the truth of that last sentence :) >
>>
>> Chat can be long winded. All is agreed in your Chat response. The
>> challenge
>> is that a bhavarupa avidya isn't subject to falsification by knowledge -
>> only an error can be falsified - therefore, it doesn't work as a
>> provisional teaching. That is SSS's reasoning..
>>
>> I'd like to propose an experiment: would you copy my last response into
>> your chat and request a refutation? Given our discussion about how AI
>> responses can be shaped by user framing, I'm curious to see what
>> alternative perspective it might offer.
>> Regards, michael
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 5:19 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Namaste Raghav ji.
>> >
>> >
>> >> The merger of prANa (and everything else)  in sushupti is accepted by
>> even
>> >>  SSSS. (Notwithstanding the fact that it’s sabīja and not  nirbīja as
>> per
>> >>  mainstream Vedanta.
>> >>
>> >> If the “merger of prANa” is the distinctive characteristic of DSV, we
>> have
>> >>  to say SSSS unwittingly accepts DSV !)
>> >>
>> >
>> > I find SSSS ji to self-contradict himself. So, it is no surprise.
>> >
>> > Regards.
>> > Sudhanshu Shekhar.
>> >
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