[Advaita-l] [advaitin] RE: pratiyogI-jnAna being mandatory for abhAva-jnAna

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

Namaste Michael ji.

//"The illusory manifestation is totally non-existent in any form or at any
time apart from the place, time and form in which it was perceived.//

It is non-existent even at the place, time and form of its manifestation
and not only at "apart from". SSSS ji should have mentioned this. I don't
know why he skipped that.

//And at the time of cancellation its whole being is seen to have been
exhausted in its manifestation in that way at that place."//

At the time of negation, one understands the traikAlika-abhAva. At the time
of error, one does not understand the traikAlika-abhAva. That is the
difference.

//This is explained by Bhasyakara as the correction of an apparent
conjunction between snake and rope by the negation of the apparency upon
the only ever existing rope without the possibility of any kind of positive
ignorance being assumed//

Mere rope cannot be confused for snake. It is rope+ajnAna that is confused
for snake. Rope alone is never confused.

//I have simplified but hope it will not be taken as a substitute for
SSSSji's clarification. Here are links to the exact pages for more
clarification and depth regarding this issue. Kindly consider//

I saw it. Merely quoting BhAshyakAra does not help. One has to answer the
questions. And one such basic question is this -- can x-abhAva-jnAna occur
without x-jnAna.

//Are you ignoring SSSS's refutation?//

What is his refutation here?

//There is no proper appearance in time or space to require a previous
positive pratiyogin.//

What is "proper appearance"? There is appearance of snake. Who can deny it?
All VivaraNa is saying is that there is a snake-abhava there. VivaraNa says
that there is traikAlika-snake-abhAva in rope. The place where snake
appeared, at that very place, there is traikAlika-abhAva of snake. That is
what is mithyAtva of snake. What is wrong in it?


//There is simply right knowledge dismissing wrong knowledge//

Knowledge does not happen without an object of knowledge. You dispute this
and I will ask you to define knowledge and mechanism of arising of
knowledge. Please note that the discussion is being held in SDV.


//and that "At the time of the cancelling cognition, the question of
whether the world does or’ does not exist in the Absolute becomes totally
irrelevant."//

World does not exist in Brahman. There is traikAlika-abhAva of world in
Brahman. World exists nowhere. It has no existence.

There is merely sat-tAdAtmya because of which one says - world is. This
sat-tAdAtmya is equally mithyA and merely appears while it is non-existent.

The question is relevant when world appears and appears to exist. Enquiry
shows that - world is like snake, it merely appears while it is not.

Singular inactive Brahman cannot give rise to even a mistake. So, a
non-existent apparent avidyA needs to be accepted, from its own frame of
reference, to explain appearance.

Regards.


On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, 15:24 Michael Chandra Cohen, <
michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sudhanshu Shekharji, pranam.
>
> Often you have raised this pratiyogin objection against an abhavarupa
> avidya however it is based on some kind of existential positive abhava
> entity as opposed to a mere absence of knowledge. That seems to be an
> original argument made in the Ishta Siddhi and apparently repeated in the
> Vivarana but is addressed by SSSS in chapter 12 of his Vedanta Prakriya
> Pratyabinna/The Method of the Vedanta. SSSSji first cites the original
> objection and then offers the correct view with support from Sankara in
> Gita 13.26.
>
> "The illusory manifestation is totally non-existent in any form or at any
> time apart from the place, time and form in which it was perceived. And at
> the time of cancellation its whole being is seen to have been exhausted in
> its manifestation in that way at that place."
>
> This is explained by Bhasyakara as the correction of an apparent
> conjunction between snake and rope by the negation of the apparency upon
> the only ever existing rope without the possibility of any kind of positive
> ignorance being assumed
>
> I have simplified but hope it will not be taken as a substitute for
> SSSSji's clarification. Here are links to the exact pages for more
> clarification and depth regarding this issue. Kindly consider
>
> Regards, MCC
>
>
> https://archive.org/details/the-method-of-the-vedanta-a-critical-account-of-the-advaita-tradition-swami-satchidanandendra/page/n845/mode/2up
>
> https://archive.org/details/the-method-of-the-vedanta-a-critical-account-of-the-advaita-tradition-swami-satchidanandendra/page/n791/mode/2up?view=theater
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 6:49 AM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <
> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> praNAms Sri Sudhanshu prabhuji
>>
>> Hare Krishna
>>
>>
>>
>> I would like to know this from avidyA-vidyA perspective.  Hence I asked
>> that doubt.  To talk anything about Atma jnAna we should have had knowledge
>> about it  ‘then’ and feeling the absence of the same ‘now’.  If this query
>> not related /applicable to this then I have least interest in knowing
>> anything further.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>>
>> bhaskar
>>
>>
>>
>> The question is very simple BhAskar ji. In order to know whether there is
>> abhAva of ushkalanta in the room, one has to first know what is ushkalanta.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, x-abhAva-jnAna in the room requires x-jnAna.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is what advaita teachings holds.
>>
>>
>>
>> I was interested to know if any other Indian Philosophy branch holds
>> contrary view.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>