[Advaita-l] ​Re: [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree

[Raja Krishnamurti]

Hari Om, Jaishankar ji, for this beautiful explanation of mithya and Maya. Only one question. Is Maya the cause for mithya?
With great regards,
Raja Krishnamurti

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 21, 2022, at 5:52 PM, Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> 
> JN Sir, pranam. I am sure there will be more coming but as for your Brbh
> 3.5.1 quote, the following sentence seems to inform your conclusion
> adversely, the jnani knows one only without a second, without interior or
> exterior ...
> 
> "We do not maintain the existence of things different from Brahman in the
> state when the highest truth has been definitely known , as the Srutis say
> , " One only without a second " , and " Without interior or exterior " ( II
> . v . 19 ; III . viii . 8 ) . Nor do we deny the validity , for the
> ignorant , of actions with their factors and results while the relative
> world of name and form exists ."
> 
>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 3:25 PM Michael Chandra Cohen <
>> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I've posted your response on Facebook. Let's see what response we get.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 2:16 PM Jaishankar Narayanan via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear  Michael Chandra Cohen ji,
>>> 
>>> You ask - what is Mithya?
>>> 
>>> Mithya / Asat / Anrtam - these are all ontological terms used by Advaitins
>>> and Bhasyakara. For a definition see BG Bhashya 2.16
>>> न असतः अविद्यमानस्य शीतोष्णादेः सकारणस्य न विद्यते नास्ति भावो भवनम्
>>> अस्तिता ॥ न हि शीतोष्णादि सकारणं प्रमाणैर्निरूप्यमाणं वस्तुसद्भवति ।
>>> विकारो
>>> हि सः, विकारश्च व्यभिचरति । यथा घटादिसंस्थानं चक्षुषा निरूप्यमाणं
>>> मृद्व्यतिरेकेणानुपलब्धेरसत् , तथा सर्वो विकारः कारणव्यतिरेकेणानुपलब्धेरसन्
>>> । जन्मप्रध्वंसाभ्यां प्रागूर्ध्वं च अनुपलब्धेः कार्यस्य घटादेः
>>> मृदादिकारणस्य च तत्कारणव्यतिरेकेणानुपलब्धेरसत्त्वम् ॥
>>> 
>>> Also Taittiriya Bhasya 2.1
>>> सत्यमिति यद्रूपेण यन्निश्चितं तद्रूपं न व्यभिचरति, तत्सत्यम् । यद्रूपेण
>>> यन्निश्चितं तद्रूपं व्यभिचरति, तदनृतमित्युच्यते । अतो विकारोऽनृतम् , ‘
>>> वाचारम्भणं विकारो नामधेयं मृत्तिकेत्येव सत्यम्’ (छा. उ. ६ । १ । ४) एवं
>>> सदेव
>>> सत्यमित्यवधारणात् ।
>>> 
>>> To summarise - that which is a modification, an effect, available for
>>> sense
>>> perception, not separately available from its cause, has beginning (not
>>> available before) and end (not available after), that which after being
>>> ascertained in one form, changes from that - is mithya, asat , anrtam.
>>> 
>>> Now the world is mithya, asat, anrtam and its cause avidya is also of the
>>> same nature - mithya, asat, anrtam. It cannot be a totally non-existent
>>> jnaana-abhaava. So Vedanta Sara is correct in identfying Maya / Avidya as
>>> kinchit bhavarupa - as real and as existent as the mithya / asat world.
>>> Obviously it has no existence from a Paaramaartika drishti / standpoint.
>>> Does avidya as an upadhi not create dvaita? Shankara has already answered
>>> this in Br. Up Bh 3.5.1
>>> नामरूपोपाध्यस्तित्वे ‘एकमेवाद्वितीयम्’ (छा. उ. ६ । २ । १) ‘नेह नानास्ति
>>> किञ्चन’ (बृ. उ. ४ । ४ । १९) इति श्रुतयो विरुध्येरन्निति चेत् — न,
>>> सलिलफेनदृष्टान्तेन परिहृतत्वात् मृदादिदृष्टान्तैश्च ;
>>> 
>>> The essence of my quotation from 3.5.1 bhashya is - The mithya vyavahaara
>>> (worldly transactions) due to differentiation is there for those who
>>> accept
>>> things as different from brahman (ignorant) and for those who do not (the
>>> jnaani). Now according to Swamiji if knowledge destroys vyakta-adhyaasa
>>> (not just ajnaana) then how can he account for statements like these? How
>>> does he even explain Jeevan-mukti?
>>> 
>>> How can a non-existent thing be a pedagogical tool? It makes immense sense
>>> to say moola-avidya is as real as the world appearance and use it as a
>>> pedagogical tool (adhyaaropa) rather than proposing an abhaava. As the
>>> world is negated, moola-avidya also is destroyed / negated along with it
>>> as
>>> mithya / anrtam / asat.
>>> 
>>> Why ajnaana cannot be jnaana-abhaava has been discussed in Swaaraajya
>>> Siddhi and in Samkshepashaareeraka. I may have to refer the books to get
>>> the exact verses.
>>> 
>>> with love and prayers,
>>> Jaishankar
>>> 
>>> Message: 8
>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 07:25:49 -0500
>>>> From: Michael Chandra Cohen <michaelchandra108 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
>>>>        <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>        <CAAz9PvFjjhwR33SJzEhejMZbJbBnjDsO4-nf9-=
>>>> xaKwSYMCZ8g at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>>> 
>>>> Namaste Jaishankara Narayan, thank you for your reflections in reply. I
>>>> have taken the liberty of sharing your response on Facebook and will, in
>>>> turn, share here worthy responses.
>>>> 
>>>> To  your first point, what is mithya? Vedanta Sara is
>>>> staunchly mulAvidyAvada. .The text lists 5 definitions of maya/avidya
>>> all
>>>> of which denote some kind of positive, bhavarupa, existent.
>>>> To your second point, a) please translate Brbh 3.5.1. -- b) " Now the
>>> above
>>>> (pedagogical tool) applies exactly to moolavidya. " -- moola avidya is
>>> an
>>>> existent, Eshwara's Maya Shakti, a positive bhavarupa avidya and not
>>> simply
>>>> a teaching tool?
>>>> To your third point, please be specific, how exactly and where has jnana
>>>> abhava been dealt with?
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 1:02 AM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>> 
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