[Advaita-l] Perception in lightning

[Venkatraghavan S]

Yes, the entire pratikarmavyavasthA first presented in the vivaraNam will
have to be redone.

It will have implications -

1) how can the adhiShThAna chaitanya be the one that is illuminating the
object? The vRtti no longer goes to the object to remove the AvaraNa at the
viShaya leading to the viShaya avacChinna chaitanya to become abhivyakta.

2) how to differentiate between pratyaksha and paroksha jnAna? In the
former the vRtti goes to the object itself, which it doesn't in the case of
the latter. That being so, the pramAtR, pramANa, prameya chaitanya becoming
one simultaneously in pratyaksha leading to both asattvApAdaka ajnAna and
abhAnApAdaka ajnAna to be destroyed. In the latter, only the asattvApAdaka
ajnAna is destroyed as only the pramAtR and prameya chaitanya are merged.
If the vRtti does not go to the object in both cases, how to differentiate
the two types of cognition?
Perhaps it is on the basis of whether sound and light make contact with the
senses+mind or not.

3) what is the cause of aparoksha bhrama? The ajnAna in the viShaya
avacChinna chaitanya not being removed by the pramANa vRtti leads to the
manifestation of adhyAsa artha and adhyAsa jnAna.

If light and sound arrive to the subject, is there a need to postulate two
types of adhyAsa, jnAna and artha? ie all adhyAsa is only jnAna, the artha
being a projection of it outside on the part of the seer.

One would have to think through all this. Look forward to reading Sadananda
ji's work to see how he has addressed these. I know at some point in the
past we discussed this in this forum.

On the other question, I think shabda and sound are the same, although I
admit I haven't considered it long enough, so there could be some instances
where considering them to be identical proves problematic.

Regards
Venkat



On Tue, 11 May 2021, 05:15 Sudhanshu Shekhar, <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Venkataraghavan ji,
>
> It is not only about redoing Vedanta Paribhasha. It is in Siddhant Bindu
> also. Our entire perception theory is based on it. Antahkaran vritti,
> avidya-vritti (for non-existent objects getting perceived). It will be very
> difficult.
>
> I wanted a clarification. Is sound and shabda same?
>
> Regards.
>
> On Tue, 11 May 2021, 03:44 Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Having thought about it, this wouldn't work for the reason that the mind
>> cannot be expected to go to the object which had ceased to exist millions
>> of years ago.
>>
>> Therefore, it would appear that the simpler explanation is to say that
>> the mind + sense organs do not travel to the object at all. They must be,
>> as science says, reacting to light and sound presented to them at the
>> location of the subject.
>>
>> One will have to redo the vedAnta paribhASha. Perhaps some enterprising
>> soul can make the attempt!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Venkatraghavan
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 10 May 2021, 22:40 Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes. However, the same is true for light as well - the object (a distant
>>> galaxy) may no longer exist by the time the mind reaches it. I think the
>>> answer in either case is that one would not see / hear the object if that
>>> was the case.
>>>
>>> However, science tells us that we continue receiving the light from dead
>>> stars and galaxies even after they have ceased to exist. To account for it
>>> one could postulate thus:
>>>
>>> There are two journeys for the vRtti that are made - from the subject to
>>> the object and back. So one could still argue that it is possible under the
>>> vedAntic system for the object to be seen even after it is gone, provided
>>> that the onward journey (from the subject to object) had been completed
>>> before the object had ceased to exist.
>>>
>>> Therefore, operating under the spirit of parsimony (and harmony with
>>> science), one could postulate that the return of the mind + indriyam from
>>> the object to the subject exactly mirrors the mechanism postulated by
>>> science - however, prior to that, there is an uncognised movement of the
>>> mind + indriyam to the object.
>>>
>>> How that happens varies for chakshu and the shrotram. For chakshu, there
>>> is a spatial alignment anticipated - the eyes have to be directed towards
>>> the object. When that happens, the mental vRtti travels towards from the
>>> subject to the object. However, no such spatial alignment is expected in
>>> the case of the shortram. It behaves more akin to a radio antenna - it has
>>> a range that it spans, and anything within that range is heard, even when
>>> the hearer is not anticipating the sound. So, one could postulate that the
>>> mind + ears automatically extend outwards (ie they span an auditory spatial
>>> range outwards, and any sound within that spatial range is heard, without
>>> the exercise of will on part of the hearer or the directing of the ears
>>> towards a sound).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 9:20 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If we postulate that mind+shrotra reach subsequent to the mind+chakshu
>>>> --
>>>> then by that time vishaya may no longer be there.
>>>>
>>>> Two clouds collide, light is produced and sound is produced
>>>> simultaneously.
>>>> By the time shrotra reaches there, there is no sound at vishaya desha.
>>>> So
>>>> what will it perceive. And it is our experience that we perceive sound.
>>>> And
>>>> also we reject शब्दान्तर उत्पत्ति due to गौरव दोष.
>>>>
>>>> I think we need to delve into the meaning of shabda. It is the shabda
>>>> which
>>>> is the vishaya of shrotra. Is shabda same as sound which requires a
>>>> medium
>>>> to propagate. If we ring a school bell in outer space, we cannot hear
>>>> sound. But does it mean there is no shabda generated ?
>>>>
>>>> Can shabda stay even when there is no audible sound.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 11 May, 2021, 1:16 am Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l, <
>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > The upapatti is that science has demonstrated that the svabhAva of
>>>> light is
>>>> > to travel at 300,000 km/s and sound is to travel at 340 m/s.
>>>> >
>>>> > That being so, one could postulate that the svabhAva of mind +
>>>> shrotram is
>>>> > to travel at 340 m/s vs 300,000 km/s for the mind + chakshu.
>>>> >
>>>> > Regards,
>>>> > Venkatraghavan
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, 10 May 2021, 06:36 V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
>>>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > While talking to Sri Mani Dravid Sastrigal about the question, he
>>>> was of
>>>> > > the opinion that the mind with the shrotrendriyam reaches the
>>>> vishaya
>>>> > desha
>>>> > > 'after' the m + c indirya.  There is no upapatti as such to account
>>>> for
>>>> > the
>>>> > > relatively slow movement of the m + s.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > We may have to say that such is their 'svabhava'.
>>>> 'दृष्टानुरोधकल्पना'.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > regards
>>>> > > subbu
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
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