[Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and Krishna are Jiva-s - Mahabharata
Kalyan
kalyan_kg at yahoo.com
Sun May 21 00:59:58 EDT 2017
For all my statements, I provided a logical explanation. If they looked like personal attacks to you, I cant help it.
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 5/21/17, Sriram Sankaranarayanan <ssriram1992 at icloud.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and Krishna are Jiva-s - Mahabharata
To: "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>, "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Sunday, May 21, 2017, 4:48 AM
(replying to the group)
On Sat, May 20, 2017
at 11:18 PM, Kalyan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
wrote:
Dear Sri Sriram
I have not made any personal attacks against Sri
Subrahmanian - the person who gave the arguments, so your
contention is wrong.Holding that your questions are to
Advaitins, all the sentences that attacks Advaitins can be
ad hominem. The arguments are originally from Appayya
Dikshitar, while Sri Subrahmanian brought it forth for us.
The sentences including1.
"Looks
like advaitins are a divided lot since Shankara and
Madhusudhana Saraswati consider Krishna as Ishwara and the
latter considers Rama also as Ishwara." rather
than, "How can we reconcile the opinions
of Sri Shankaracharya and Sri Madhusudhana
Saraswathi who consider ..."
2. Appayya Dikshitha probably has
not studied the entire Mahabharata3. Appayya Dikshita ultimately comes
out as a very poor reader of the great epic. were ad
hominem. I have only said that
Appayya Dikshita comes across as a poor reader of the epic.
Here is the reason why - Rama does not become a jIva just
because he goes to svarga and is under Indra's lordship
because Ishwara can be present in multiple places at the
same time. Krishna does not become a jIva because he says he
fell under delusion because the Mahabharata itself says that
Krishna beguiles everyone and does actions as though he is
powerless.
Ishannapi mahAyogI sarvasya jagato hariH |
karmANyArabhate kartuM kInAsha iva durbalaH || 14||
tena va~nchayate lokAnmAyAyogena keshavaH |
ye tameva prapadyante na te muhyanti mAnavAH || 15||
(Mbh.5.66)
So the so-called stray verses that Appayya Dikshita was
using were not really showing jIvatva of either Rama or
Krishna.
Exactly, all advaitis agree to
this claim of yours! These verses DO NOT establish the
jivatva of Rama or Krishna. But on the other hand, if
somebody quotes similar verses on Shiva and claim Shiva is
jiva, it cannot be accepted. All that Appayya dikshitar
has shown is that, using the
above said logic, even Rama or Krishna can be proved to be
Jiva.
Regards
Kalyan
------------------------------ --------------
On Sat, 5/20/17, Sriram
Sankaranarayanan <ssriram1992 at icloud.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and Krishna are Jiva-s
- Mahabharata
To: "A discussion group for Advaita
Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
vedanta.org>, "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2017, 10:40 PM
Dear Kalyan
ji,
While kindly
advising you to refrain from ad hominem (attacking the
arguing person rather than the argument) I would like to
answer you.
Please
read the link sent by Sri Subramaniam ji. Appayya
Dikshita
is indeed saying that "if you can pick individual
phrases from Ramayana Mahabharata etc and claim Shiva is
Jeeva, it is not difficult to pick isolated phrases, or
even
chapters to show Rama and Krishna are jeeva. He just
showed
that with clever choice of selecting stanzas, even the
counter argument can be implied. All that Sri Appayya
Dikshita claims finally is Hari-Hara abheda.
It is the same paramatma who is
brahma, shiva, Hari or Indra. "Sa brahma sa
shiva sa hari saendra "
On Sat, May 20,
2017
at 3:33 PM Kalyan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
vedanta.org>
wrote:
I have
touched upon only Rama. The idea that the Mahabharata
considers Krishna as not Ishwara, is not even worth
refuting. It is hilarious. At so many places in the
Mahabharata is Krishna described as Ishwara, that it is
pointless to list them all. Appayya Dikshita ultimately
comes out as a very poor reader of the great epic.
Regards
Kalyan
------------------------------ --------------
On Sat, 5/20/17, Kalyan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
vedanta.org>
wrote:
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and Krishna are
Jiva-s
- Mahabharata
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-
vedanta.org>
Cc: "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2017, 6:40 PM
Appayya Dikshitha probably
has not studied
the entire Mahabharata. In
Shanti parvan, when Vishnu
shows
his Vishwaroopa to Narada, Vishnu says that he will be
born
as Dasaratha's son Rama.
sandhau tu samanuprApte
tretAyAM
dvAparasya cha |
rAmo dAsharathirbhUtvA bhaviShyAmi
jagatpatiH || Mbh 12.326.78
Thus, the Mahabharata itself
establishes Rama as Ishwara. Moreover Valmiki Ramayana
also
considers Rama as Ishwara. One must not study a text in
bits
and pieces.
Regards
Kalyan
----------------------------- -------------
On Sat, 5/20/17, V Subrahmanian via
Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
vedanta.org>
wrote:
Subject: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and
Krishna are Jiva-s - Mahabharata
To: "A discussion group for Advaita
Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
vedanta.org>
Cc: "V Subrahmanian" <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2017, 3:26 AM
A post on the above topic is available
here
for reading:
https://adbhutam.wordpress.
com/2017/05/20/rama-and- krishna-are-jiva-s-
mahabharata/
regards
subrahmanian.v
In the short work 'Bhārata sāraga
sangraha stotram', Sri Appayya
Dikshita
concludes by pointing out that Rama
and
Krishna were jiva-s, endowed with
karma, delusion, etc. on the
authority
of the Mahabharata:
गोप्तारं ततो
गच्छेत्
सरव्यास्तीर्थमुत्तमम्
।
तत्र रामो गतः
स्वर्गं
सभृत्यबलवाहनः ॥
देहं
त्यक्त्वा
दिवं यातः
स्थास्यतीन्द्रस्य
वैभवात् ।’
[Rama went to svarga along with his
retinue, after giving up the body,
and
remains there with Indra's lordship.]
इति
गोप्रतारतीर्थमहिम्ना
श्रीरामस्य
स्वर्गप्रतिष्ठावचनात्;
सभापर्वणि
यमसभावर्णने -
Having thus proclaimed the greatness
of
Go-pratāra, Sri Rama's settlement
in Svarga, the sabhā parvan of the
Mahabharata while describing the
Assembly Hall of Yama further says:
तस्यां
राजर्षयः
पुण्यास्तथा
देवर्षयोऽमराः ।
यमं वैवस्वतं
तात
प्रहृष्टाः
पर्युपासते ॥
ययातिर्नहुषः
पूरुर्मान्धाता
सोमको
नृगः ।
इत्यारभ्य
स्वर्गप्राप्त्यनन्तरं
यमसभायामास्थाय
तमुपासीनानां
राजर्षीणां
परिगणनेन,
’रामो
दाशरथिश्चैव
लक्षमणश्च
प्रतर्दनः’
इति परिगणनेन च
सोऽपि
कर्माधीनलोकप्राप्तिको
जीवविशेषः
स्यात् ।
In the Assembly Hall of Yama are
present: Rajarshi-s with puṇya,
devarshi-s, deva-s, who happily
meditate upon Yama. Also are Yayati,
Nahusha, Puru, Māndhāta, Somaka,
Nṛga. Having enumerated those
present in
the Assembly and meditating Yama, the
Mahabharata includes: Rāma the son
of
Dasharatha, Lakshmana and Pratardana.
By so counting Rama along with all
other entities, it can be concluded
that Rama is a jiva who has attained
a
loka that is subject to and
attainable
by karma.
Read the full post in the URL
provided
above.
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--
Sriram Sankaranarayanan
PhD Candidate,
Center for
Systems Science and Engineering|Latrobe 302
Johns Hopkins University.
Ph:
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