[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Pāśupata, Pāncharātra, etc. composed by Śiva and Viṣṇu as mohaka śāstra

[Venkatraghavan S]

No, I think you may have misunderstood how the metaphor was used. I am not
suggesting throwing away tantra and keeping veda - they are for two
different groups of people. To each group, the relevant shAstra is
necessary and the other one is not necessary.

I thought this was clear, but let me explicitly say how I meant the
metaphor. The baby is both shAstras, the bathwater is their uselessness for
anadhikAris of each system.

Don't bring moksha in at all, because moksha is not something that is
achieved. However just because moksha is not achievable, do not throw away
either veda  or tantra as useless which is what you were suggesting.

One further thing, veda does not need me to save it, but I will say that
without karmakANDa serving to prepare the candidate and jnAnakANDa
providing direct knowledge, knowledge of moksha is impossible.

With that I will stop.

Regards,
Venkatraghavan

On 17 Feb 2017 2:58 p.m., "D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ" <dvnsarma at gmail.com>
wrote:

> *Here the baby is moksha*. it is neither tantra nor the veda.
> Do not attempt to equate tantra to bathwater and save your veda as baby.
>
> regards,
> Sarma.
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:55 PM, Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Sure, both do not serve as a direct means for mokshA, however each of
>> them are in fact useful in another way.
>>
>> Tantras are useful in getting shraddhA in veda, which will lead to
>> vaidika karma in another birth. Vaidika karmas are useful in getting chitta
>> shuddhi and belief in veda prAmANyam, which are both necessary for
>> accepting the conclusions of jnAna kANDa.
>>
>> You are proposing to throw the baby with the bathwater, which is
>> unnecessary and self defeating.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Venkatraghavan
>>
>> On 17 Feb 2017 2:08 p.m., "D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ" <
>> dvnsarma at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >If the tantrAs say that by following them one can get mokshA, they are
>>> wrong. Irrespective of what any shAstra says, mokshA is not something to be
>>> >given or taken. It is not something that is earned. The infinite achieved
>>> by the finite is a logical fallacy. Further, if moksha occurs at a point in
>>> time, then it >did not exist before that time, and therefore has a
>>> beginning. Whatever has a beginning must have an end. If it ends, what is
>>> the use of such a moksha?
>>>
>>> Moksha *cannot be got* by vedas or vaidika karmas.
>>>
>>> त्रैगुण्यविषयाः वेदाः निस्त्रैगुण्यो भवार्जुन
>>> *न कर्मणा* न प्रजया.....
>>> *न वेदा न यज्ञा *न तीर्थ ब्रुवन्ति
>>>
>>> In such case why go from one useless process (tantras) to another
>>> useless process(vedic rituals).
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> Sarma.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:15 PM, Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Firstly, the puNya from different karmas are not the same and cannot
>>>> give the same results. So I am not sure how you can claim that "*this*
>>>> puNya can be got by vedabahya tantras." In fact, what the bhAShya
>>>> explicitly says is that the puNya gained from these veda bAhya systems is
>>>> limited to giving shraddhA in vedas.
>>>>
>>>> I am also not sure on what basis you are concluding "They can continue
>>>> to follow the tantras and get moksha " - there is nothing in the bhAshya
>>>> that supports the view.
>>>>
>>>> If the tantrAs say that by following them one can get mokshA, they are
>>>> wrong. Irrespective of what any shAstra says, mokshA is not something to be
>>>> given or taken. It is not something that is earned. The infinite achieved
>>>> by the finite is a logical fallacy. Further, if moksha occurs at a point in
>>>> time, then it did not exist before that time, and therefore has a
>>>> beginning. Whatever has a beginning must have an end. If it ends, what is
>>>> the use of such a moksha?
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, the moksha that advaita talks about is quite unlike the
>>>> moksha that any other system. It is not a state that is achieved in time,
>>>> it is not going to another loka, it is simply understanding our fundamental
>>>> nature, which is mukta.  We think we are not mukta, but that is merely a
>>>> wrong notion. This wrong notion can only be corrected by right knowledge.
>>>> Knowledge is not something that is achieved by action. It has to be
>>>> generated by a pramANa.
>>>>
>>>> No other pramANa that we have access to, apart from shruti, speaks
>>>> about our fundamental nature. That is why veda nishthA and shraddhA are
>>>> important.  If this appears a lame invention, then I really have nothing
>>>> further to add.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 1:19 PM, D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ <
>>>> dvnsarma at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Performance of Vedic ritual is to get punya(apoorva). From the bhashya
>>>>> it appears that this punya can be got by
>>>>> vedabahya tantras. In addition parameswaranugraha also. What else is
>>>>> needed? Why janmantara VedanishTha and KRitakRityata.
>>>>> They can continue to follow the tantras and get moksha. That is what
>>>>> tantras also say.
>>>>> So all this circuitous exercise is a lame invention of
>>>>> nanyadasthItivadins.
>>>>>
>>>>> A number of people who proclaim themselves to be advaitins are
>>>>> prachchanna purvamimasakas.
>>>>> They use the advaita as an armour to protect themselves from the
>>>>> onslaught of buddhists etc.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>