[Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive

[Anbu sivam2]

Sunilji,

All experience takes place only through identification with a body (which
'experiences').  The three bodies that 'experience' in their  three
respective states are actually different and is seen to slip such experience
between on another (except in case of deep sleep state) because they (the
three bodies) share a single manas with its four parts - manas, buddhi,
ahankaram and chittam.

Could you tell me if Turia 'state' has a body to experience?  If Turia is a
Saakshin is it of only 'you' with the three bodies (sthula, sukshma, kaarana
sarirams)?  That would definitely mean it has a unique sarira about which
our scriptures have not spoken.  On the other hand this Saakshi could be the
Saakshi for all.  So much so it needs no unique body and no experience
whatsoever.  Our scriptures *do* speak of such Saakshi.

Turia is a concept indicating something beyond the ken of the intellect.
Nothing defineable for it is beyond the intellect!

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dear Michaelji,
>
> Though this may not fully saisfy your search for Shastric references can I
> make the following suggestion? Let us present it somewhat like this, on the
> lines of the Hamsa Upanishad. At the center (the Heart-chakra) the Sleep is
> the base, Deep-Sleep is the stalk or channel and the End (tip) of the flower
> in the Turiya or Brahman. Sleep is the link between the Hamsa (individual
> soul or Jiva) and the Paramhamsa (Brahman), the Sakshi and as both are the
> same Hamsa is the Sakshi. A bit complicated isn't it and we need ones like
> Adi Sankaracharya to tell us more.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
>
> --- On Sun, 10/18/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re:  waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
> supportive
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Sunday, October 18, 2009, 5:00 PM
>
> Dear Sunilji,
>
> I think that's exactly it. The indifferent atman witnesses all the three
> states; the effect of this, day by day in our sadhana, provides a quantum
> of
> knowledge which we do not recognise as such -- especially if we see the
> states as separate, and worse, dismiss the dream state as unconnected with
> the other states, or of only 'illusory' nature -- and yes, of course, all
> this is illusion; but we learn from it.
>
> Can you offer any shastric references for this ? I've never seen sakshi
> discussed, although it's a basic term of Dvaita and Advaita along with
> sakshi-bhasya ?
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Sunil
> Bhattacharjya
> Sent: 18 October 2009 23:56
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping,as mutually
> supportive
>
>
>
> Dear Michaelji,
>
> I think you are right in your idea of Turiya as Sakshi. Is the dream state
> not a continuation of our life-experiences in a virtual world? The
> experiences, which are not sorted out or understood properly when we are
> active, probably lingers in our mind after we shut down our Indriyas and go
> to sleep or you can say when we withdrew from our Annamaya kosha and the
> Pranamaya kosha and go to the Manomaya kosha. We might have consciously
> given up a problem unfinished  but the mind does not do so as long as it
> can. It is like a fire which you have covered with a lid.Though the  fire
> disappered from our view, the burning continues for some time. Would you
> think that the dream state has such a relation with the waking state?
>
> Regards,
>
> Sunil K. Bhattacjharjya
>
> Regards,
>
> Sunil K.Bhattacharjya
>
> --- On Sun, 10/18/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re:  waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
> supportive
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Sunday, October 18, 2009, 6:28 AM
>
> Dear Vishyji
>
> This is a delicate matter...the 'triple proof of truth' required by
> Hinduism
> has not been bettered -- shastra, guru and experience (to which one could
> add inference etc).
>
> So I advance these practical matters with caution !
>
> I'm sure you're right, and I'm right : turiya is that state better called
> and recognised as 'equanimity'; when atman simply observes the senses alert
> yet at rest; the mind alert yet at rest; the jiva or antakarana alert yet
> at
> rest. Wonderful. Such a blessed relief. But for most of us, to be followed
> by karma ! But the memory stays.
>
> My personal practical interest is whether the 'dreaming' state, which
> covers
> fantasy, very practical 'imagination', and artistic imagination, can be
> explored in its realisation to the other two states which we know so well
> (and I won't get into the argument as to whether we 'know' deep sleep or
> simply infer it...!).
>
> Does that help or take things further ?
>
> These days in my vanaprastha, I'm a poet, and care very much about artistic
> imagination under advaita !
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Vishy
> Sent: 18 October 2009 12:52
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping,as mutually
> supportive
>
>
>
> Dear Michealji,
>
>
> Though I am born Hindu Brahmin, I am sure you are better euipped in these
> matters than me.
> But unfortunately, even our own people have seldom gone in depths of the
> real philosophy and made the religion a bundle of rituals,as I said , fell
> to the trap of mind (and not ready to acknowledge it, forget comming out of
> it.)
>
> As I understood, Turiya need not be merely a state of thoughtlessness that
> you encounter when you meditate. Its the state of continuous awareness even
> in the three other states.thats sort of pure witnessing state without any
> desire/ fear or any sort of attachement to anything.
>
> In other words, complete absence of 'I ' feeling ,unless when requiered to
> deal with others in normal life situations. If you consider Jeevanmuktha
> state as dropping the mind completely for ever, Turiya is the state where
> you can swith the mind off when not requiered. That ability to switch off
> can be mastered only as the result of sadhana. This sadhana could be in the
> form of Bhakthi yoga, Jnana yoga, karma yoga or raja yoga, but whatever
> form
> it is , we should remember they are only means and not end by itself.
>
> In that way even sanyas is also means in Jnana marga. Unless one realize
> this sanyas it self could prove to be a trap in strenthening the mind .
> similarly Bhakthi, Karma paths too.
>
>
> Request you to kindly let me know whether I have understood thingls
> properly
>
>
> Pranams
> Vishy
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 18/10/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
> supportive
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Sunday, 18 October, 2009, 3:57 PM
>
>
> Dear Vishyji,
>
> That's well put. I'm well acquainted with the theory and practice of
> Advaita
> Vedanta, and believe I have some sense of what the fourth state might be or
> is.
>
> What intrigues me is: we could imagine a life which consists of 16 hours
> waking and 8 hours sleeping, let's say. But in between these great states
> which shape our lives, is that state we call drfeaming; which seems to be a
> collection of mostly left-over thoughts, feelings, etc assembled into a
> kind
> of fantasy.
>
> Now some sages would say, let these go, pay no attention. Others would say,
> it's a reminder that our so-called 'waking' state is mostly conducted in a
> sort of 'waking dream' where the same ragbag fantasy accompanies every
> moment of ahamkara's devices which we have built to distract us from
> staying
> in pure atman...
>
> And I know that the shastra identify seven sorts of dream. We live in a
> scientific culture' I'm just wondering if there is more to be discovered --
> not in the scientiific field alone, that's going ahead anyway; but whether
> there is anything to learn from this universal state in terms of our
> sadhana.
>
> Of course, it's all 'taken care of' : turiya is the rest of unnecessary
> thought in the rest of the mind; so no dream..
>
> No big deal; just an enquiry.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Vishy
> Sent: 18 October 2009 10:02
> To: To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
> Subject: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping,as mutually
> supportive
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 18/10/09, Vishy <vishy1962 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Vishy <vishy1962 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Sunday, 18 October, 2009, 1:41 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Michealji
>
> Let me try to share my inderstsnding in this rgeard......
>
> What you see or experience in waking state only gets reprojected in dream
> state and all these would remain latent in deep sleep state, only to make
> you desire / fear such experience once again when you wakeup. As long as
> our
> attention is focused to the material things/ thoughts , we get trapped in
> this cycle and can never experience the fouth state at all.
>
> All these three states are well with in the grips of Mind which is seat of
> the Ego. Thus we identify everything with this 'I' as I am doing , I am
> dreaming and I was sleeping. Breaking this cycle and going beyond this is
> to
> reach the witnessing state, the fourth.
>
> But to even reach this state we should use the mechanisms of the same mind.
> That is to see / study the stuff that leads to the truth (shravana),
> continue the same very thoughts even in your dream (manana) and let that go
> down deep even in deep sleep state (niddyasana) so that cycle is broken in
> course of time. Possibly palying the same tricks of the mind to encounter
> itself. But we should be well aware that we are indulging in the same trick
> to counter the tricks of the mind otherwise we will get sucked into the
> illusion of chasing enlightenment.
>
>
> Pranams
> Vishy
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 17/10/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Saturday, 17 October, 2009, 4:43 PM
>
>
> Dear Vishyji
>
> The 'four states' are quoted ad infinitum. What I am asking for is new
> thinking  under Advaita, on how these states may interact -- as they
> obviously do -- to their mutual benefit in the sadhana..
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
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