[Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive
Sunil Bhattacharjya
sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com
Sun Oct 18 22:15:10 CDT 2009
Dear Michaelji,
Though this may not fully saisfy your search for Shastric references can I make the following suggestion? Let us present it somewhat like this, on the lines of the Hamsa Upanishad. At the center (the Heart-chakra) the Sleep is the base, Deep-Sleep is the stalk or channel and the End (tip) of the flower in the Turiya or Brahman. Sleep is the link between the Hamsa (individual soul or Jiva) and the Paramhamsa (Brahman), the Sakshi and as both are the same Hamsa is the Sakshi. A bit complicated isn't it and we need ones like Adi Sankaracharya to tell us more.
Regards,
Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
--- On Sun, 10/18/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Sunday, October 18, 2009, 5:00 PM
Dear Sunilji,
I think that's exactly it. The indifferent atman witnesses all the three
states; the effect of this, day by day in our sadhana, provides a quantum of
knowledge which we do not recognise as such -- especially if we see the
states as separate, and worse, dismiss the dream state as unconnected with
the other states, or of only 'illusory' nature -- and yes, of course, all
this is illusion; but we learn from it.
Can you offer any shastric references for this ? I've never seen sakshi
discussed, although it's a basic term of Dvaita and Advaita along with
sakshi-bhasya ?
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Sunil
Bhattacharjya
Sent: 18 October 2009 23:56
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping,as mutually
supportive
Dear Michaelji,
I think you are right in your idea of Turiya as Sakshi. Is the dream state
not a continuation of our life-experiences in a virtual world? The
experiences, which are not sorted out or understood properly when we are
active, probably lingers in our mind after we shut down our Indriyas and go
to sleep or you can say when we withdrew from our Annamaya kosha and the
Pranamaya kosha and go to the Manomaya kosha. We might have consciously
given up a problem unfinished but the mind does not do so as long as it
can. It is like a fire which you have covered with a lid.Though the fire
disappered from our view, the burning continues for some time. Would you
think that the dream state has such a relation with the waking state?
Regards,
Sunil K. Bhattacjharjya
Regards,
Sunil K.Bhattacharjya
--- On Sun, 10/18/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:
From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
supportive
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Sunday, October 18, 2009, 6:28 AM
Dear Vishyji
This is a delicate matter...the 'triple proof of truth' required by Hinduism
has not been bettered -- shastra, guru and experience (to which one could
add inference etc).
So I advance these practical matters with caution !
I'm sure you're right, and I'm right : turiya is that state better called
and recognised as 'equanimity'; when atman simply observes the senses alert
yet at rest; the mind alert yet at rest; the jiva or antakarana alert yet at
rest. Wonderful. Such a blessed relief. But for most of us, to be followed
by karma ! But the memory stays.
My personal practical interest is whether the 'dreaming' state, which covers
fantasy, very practical 'imagination', and artistic imagination, can be
explored in its realisation to the other two states which we know so well
(and I won't get into the argument as to whether we 'know' deep sleep or
simply infer it...!).
Does that help or take things further ?
These days in my vanaprastha, I'm a poet, and care very much about artistic
imagination under advaita !
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Vishy
Sent: 18 October 2009 12:52
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping,as mutually
supportive
Dear Michealji,
Though I am born Hindu Brahmin, I am sure you are better euipped in these
matters than me.
But unfortunately, even our own people have seldom gone in depths of the
real philosophy and made the religion a bundle of rituals,as I said , fell
to the trap of mind (and not ready to acknowledge it, forget comming out of
it.)
As I understood, Turiya need not be merely a state of thoughtlessness that
you encounter when you meditate. Its the state of continuous awareness even
in the three other states.thats sort of pure witnessing state without any
desire/ fear or any sort of attachement to anything.
In other words, complete absence of 'I ' feeling ,unless when requiered to
deal with others in normal life situations. If you consider Jeevanmuktha
state as dropping the mind completely for ever, Turiya is the state where
you can swith the mind off when not requiered. That ability to switch off
can be mastered only as the result of sadhana. This sadhana could be in the
form of Bhakthi yoga, Jnana yoga, karma yoga or raja yoga, but whatever form
it is , we should remember they are only means and not end by itself.
In that way even sanyas is also means in Jnana marga. Unless one realize
this sanyas it self could prove to be a trap in strenthening the mind .
similarly Bhakthi, Karma paths too.
Request you to kindly let me know whether I have understood thingls properly
Pranams
Vishy
--- On Sun, 18/10/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:
From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
supportive
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Sunday, 18 October, 2009, 3:57 PM
Dear Vishyji,
That's well put. I'm well acquainted with the theory and practice of Advaita
Vedanta, and believe I have some sense of what the fourth state might be or
is.
What intrigues me is: we could imagine a life which consists of 16 hours
waking and 8 hours sleeping, let's say. But in between these great states
which shape our lives, is that state we call drfeaming; which seems to be a
collection of mostly left-over thoughts, feelings, etc assembled into a kind
of fantasy.
Now some sages would say, let these go, pay no attention. Others would say,
it's a reminder that our so-called 'waking' state is mostly conducted in a
sort of 'waking dream' where the same ragbag fantasy accompanies every
moment of ahamkara's devices which we have built to distract us from staying
in pure atman...
And I know that the shastra identify seven sorts of dream. We live in a
scientific culture' I'm just wondering if there is more to be discovered --
not in the scientiific field alone, that's going ahead anyway; but whether
there is anything to learn from this universal state in terms of our
sadhana.
Of course, it's all 'taken care of' : turiya is the rest of unnecessary
thought in the rest of the mind; so no dream..
No big deal; just an enquiry.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Vishy
Sent: 18 October 2009 10:02
To: To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
Subject: [Advaita-l] Fw: Re: waking, dreaming, sleeping,as mutually
supportive
--- On Sun, 18/10/09, Vishy <vishy1962 at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Vishy <vishy1962 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Sunday, 18 October, 2009, 1:41 PM
Dear Michealji
Let me try to share my inderstsnding in this rgeard......
What you see or experience in waking state only gets reprojected in dream
state and all these would remain latent in deep sleep state, only to make
you desire / fear such experience once again when you wakeup. As long as our
attention is focused to the material things/ thoughts , we get trapped in
this cycle and can never experience the fouth state at all.
All these three states are well with in the grips of Mind which is seat of
the Ego. Thus we identify everything with this 'I' as I am doing , I am
dreaming and I was sleeping. Breaking this cycle and going beyond this is to
reach the witnessing state, the fourth.
But to even reach this state we should use the mechanisms of the same mind.
That is to see / study the stuff that leads to the truth (shravana),
continue the same very thoughts even in your dream (manana) and let that go
down deep even in deep sleep state (niddyasana) so that cycle is broken in
course of time. Possibly palying the same tricks of the mind to encounter
itself. But we should be well aware that we are indulging in the same trick
to counter the tricks of the mind otherwise we will get sucked into the
illusion of chasing enlightenment.
Pranams
Vishy
--- On Sat, 17/10/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:
From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Saturday, 17 October, 2009, 4:43 PM
Dear Vishyji
The 'four states' are quoted ad infinitum. What I am asking for is new
thinking under Advaita, on how these states may interact -- as they
obviously do -- to their mutual benefit in the sadhana..
Michael
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