[Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive

[Sunil Bhattacharjya]

Dear Kathirasanji,

Namaste,

I am not posing questions to you from the high pedestal of an all-knowing person. I am genuinely concerned at what you said. The more learned scholars  will also tell us what they think on these issues.

Adi Sankaracharya's guru Givinda Bhagavadpada was said to be the Patanjali reborn and he must have been an expert in the Yoga tradition. So it is difficult to believe that Adi Sankaracharya was deficient in Yoga in any way. Add to this the declaration  of the Shiva Samhita that Hatha and the Raja yoga has to go together. We need not scratch our head searching for literature references as this background information itself is sufficient to show that Adi Sankarachary- was well versed in Hatha and Raja Yoga. From the Vijaya text we know that before his parakaya pravesh Adi Sankaracharya assured his disciples not to worry as he was well versed in Vajroli to preserve his  brahmacharya. Does this not show that he was accomplished in Hatha yoga?. With whatever knowledge I have on Yoga I am convinced that only a great master in Yoga can say like what Adi Sankaracharya said as Vajroli is probably the most difficult Mudra to perform. Personally I still believe
 that the Yogataravali should be of Adi Sankaracharya. In fact there is another Yoga text attributed to Adi Sankaracharya and you might be aware of that. That the Hatha practice belonged only to the Natha Sampradaya  is also difficult accept. Patanjali did not go into details of the Hatha does not mean that he denied Hatha. Last chapter of the Hatha Yoga Pradipika is on Samadhi and  the Yoga Sutra begins with the Samadhi pada. Both these may not be part of a single text divided into two yet they have the inseparable relation. I feel that a master like Adi Sankaracharya had the knowledge of all the six Darshanas, Dharmashastras, all the Vedas and Vedangas and he cited some puranas too. With this great erudition if he says something that may not automatically be to the exclusion of other relevent shastras unless he specifically denied any particular shastra. I am not challenging your scholarship but wanted to compare facts.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya



--- On Thu, 10/15/09, Kathirasan K <brahmasatyam at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Kathirasan K <brahmasatyam at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 4:16 AM

Namaste Sunilji,

Thanks for the reply and further questions. What's more important than your
questions are the following questions:

1. Is the Advaita Vedanta tradition deficient in sadhanas such that we have
to borrow Bandhas and Asanas from the Natha Sampradaya to attain 'mental
tranquility'? If yes, does it not mean that the vedanta tradition is
deficient. If No, shouldn't shishtas lead by example to show 'murkhas' or
'modern minds' like me the path that has been laid by Bhagavadpada Shankara
and his disciples to be a complete self-sufficient soteriological system
relevant to all regardless of time.

2. If Yoga Taravali is a text by Adi Shankara, then the author of
Aparokshanubhuti cannot be the same person. Or vice versa. Anyone who has
read both texts would definitely be confused if the texts came from the same
pen.

I am not asking these questions to question the existing tradition but for
the sake of many seekers who have found such teachings very confusing. For
any mumukshu who values shrotriyatvam the study of scriptures, as svadhyaya
or with a teacher, is essential. When faced with such information, one's
shraddha in the tradition may be shaken. I have met such people in my life.
So pls forgive me if my intentions appear controversial or if it had hurt
your feelings.

In any case, I am not here to fight for a cause or to establish my view.
Personally as a Jijnasu I find the practices of Hatha Yoga helpful in Kaya
siddhi and citta shuddhi to a certain extent. However, I fully understand
that the knowledge of the Upanishads handled by a shrotriya brahmanishta
alone will bring you to the goal of jivanmukti. And also that Vedanta needs
no support from other sampradayas to improve it further. It is a complete
soteriological system that does not need the value addition of other
darshanas nor sampradayas. The prasthana trayi is complete.

This is my last post on this thread because it is not my aim to establish
'my' view. It is for the like-minded seekers to think if they want to and
for the rest to press the delete button upon reaching the end of this post.
:) Again thanks for reading and apologies if it hurt.

asampradayavit sarva shastravidopi murkhavad eva upekshaniya
Kathirasan


2009/10/15 Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>

> Namaste,
>
> If I have understood the controversy well then I have a few queries.
>
> 1)
>  Where did you find the Vedanta denying the Tantra?
> 2)
> Is Sreevidya not Tantra (Samayachara)?
> 3)
> After reading Yogataravali do you still think the Meditation without Hatha
> practice to be ineffective?
> 4)
> Where did Sankara deny Hatha yoga?
>
> (For example, Sankhya does not speak about Ishvara as Ishvara is asiddha
> but Sankhya never expressed doubt about existence of Ishvara. So also Hatha
> is not a must as the same effect can be obtained by direct meditation but
> the effect of Haha has never been  denied.)
>
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Kathirasan K <brahmasatyam at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Kathirasan K <brahmasatyam at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 8:04 PM
>
> Namaste ji,
>
> Yes, I have read the book which was published by Krishnamacarya. I
> qualified
> in my earlier post that my premises were prasthana traya and not the many
> works attributed to the pen of Shankara.
>
> 2009/10/15 Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>
>
> > Dear Kathirajanji,
> >
> > While Vidyasankarji will reply to you I would suggest that you may have a
> > look at the Yogataravali if not done so earlier.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
> >
> > --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Kathirasan K <brahmasatyam at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Kathirasan K <brahmasatyam at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
> supportive
> > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 6:38 PM
> >
> > Namaste Vidyashankarji,
> >
> > My earlier comment was made having studied, practiced and taught some the
> > teachings of Hatha Yoga Pradipika, and also other Hatha Yoga shastras
> > (gheranda samhita, shiva samhita, hatharatnavali etc). From the
> standpoint
> > that you come from, obviously any practice can be fused into Advaita
> > Vedanta, even if it may be islamic or christian. To me this is the plight
> > of
> > modern vedanta where you don't find an uncompromising Shankara anymore.
> >
> > But I am in complete agreement that Shankara had no issues with Yoga
> > Sadhana
> > but it is obvious that he had issues with Yoga Darshana as a
> soteriological
> > system compiled/taught by Patanjali.
> >
> > I would be very interested to know if Jalandhara, Uddiyana & mula bandhas
> > were taught by shankara in his Bhasyas as a valid means to advaita atma
> > darshana or citta shuddhi. Or was it that the acarya realised that the
> > prasthana traya lacked teachings/practices to bring about mental
> > tranquility?
> >
> > 2009/10/14 Vidyasankar Sundaresan <svidyasankar at hotmail.com>
> >
> > >
> > > > Swamiji is an example of a Vedantin who has fused the practices of
> > Hatha
> > > > Yoga which is part of the Shaiva Natha Sampradaya into Vedanta. It is
> > > very
> > > > interesting to note how Vedanta and Tantra have merged in spite of
> its
> > > > teachings being mutually exclusive during the times of Shankara and
> > > > Matsyendranatha (the principal teacher of the Hatha Yoga School).
> > >
> > >
> > > This opinion seems to be based altogether on the artificial boundaries
> > > created by a section of modern academic scholarship on Indian
> traditions.
> > > Can you tell me where haTha yoga begins and ends, whether it was
> > exclusive
> > > to the Saiva Natha Sampradaya and whether it came to influence Advaita
> > > Vedanta from some external source at some point of time?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please read the brahmasUtra bhAshya under the sUtras "AsInas sambhavAt"
> > >  etc, where Sankara bhagavatpAda concludes that the yoga SAstras teach
> > many
> > > Asana-s, beginning with padmAsana, as a means to promote ease of
> > > concentration in brahmavicAra. I have had multiple occasions to point
> out
> > > the various references in the sUtrabhAshya, gItAbhAshya and the major
> > > upanishad bhAshyas, which exhibit an intimate familiarity with and even
> > > approval of yoga practices and traditions. I have also pointed out
> > numerous
> > > times that this is not limited to pAtanjala yoga sUtras and the
> > "official"
> > > yoga-darSana.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I will leave the question of Vedanta and Tantra and their fusion aside
> > for
> > > the time being. Here is a parallel point to ponder. Take the taittirIya
> > > upanishat reference - sa ya esho'ntar hRdaya AkASaH | tasminn ayaM
> > purusho
> > > ... vyapohya SIrshakapAle | ... Please read Sankara bhagavatpAda's
> > > commentary on this passage. What kind of upAsana do you think is being
> > > described here? What would you imagine are the physical correlates of
> the
> > > description in this source text of vedAnta? Is such upAsana then
> > > upanishadic-vedAntic or tAntric/haTha yogic?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Suffice it to say that if you think you can identify boundaries based
> on
> > > textual references, you had better read the texts in the original in
> > great
> > > depth and not rely on secondary or derivative scholarship. And don't
> you
> > > think someone like Swami Abhinava Vidyatirtha, the Sringeri
> > Sankaracharya,
> > > had more knowledge of the various traditions to know what is mutually
> > > exclusive and therefore contradictory versus what is acceptable and
> > > traditionally part of the life of a genuine vedAntin?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Vidyasankar
> > >
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> >
> > --
> > Kathirasan
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-- 
Kathirasan
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