Skeptics, fetal nirvana & more...

[sadananda]

>Giri wrote:
>

>>. The Menninger foundation which conducts a lot of experiments in this
>> area says that proving the dependence of consciousness and the central
>> nervous system is crucial.

Consciousness is not some object to depend on any thing!  In all the
experiments it is the experimenter that is the conscious entity.  Any proof
that excludes the subject, is no experiment to prove or disprove
consciousness.  All proofs and dis-proves depend on the preexistence  of
conscious entity - then what is there to prove or disprove.  That there is
an experimenter is enough proof for the existence of consciousness without
the need of any further experiment!  Non-conscious entity cannot
experiment.

The object can "pulsate" consciousness depending on its qualities - gunas -
A dead body has the consciousness as its existence.  The nerves system may
be there in tact just as an inert existence without chaitanya!
A body with well developed mind and intellect radiates or reflects
consciousness much more with not only the sat, but chit and ananda aspects
manifesting.


>>         To prove that consciousness is independent of the nervous system
>> is simple. Just measure the activity of the cortical portion of the brain
>> (which should be a flat line in EEG) of a person in turiya (fourth
>> state). It would directly show that both are independent of each other
>> scientifically (the last couple of sentences are paraphrased from the
>> above book).

Consciousness is neither dependent nor independent of nervous system.
In the nerves system it manifests as existence.

The greatest manifestation of consciousness is in Buddhi,
 and more so as it becomes free from impurities (vaasanaas) Bhagavan
sankara says in Atama Bodha:

     sadaa sarvagatoopyaatmaa
     nasavratraanu bhaasate
     buddaavebhaaseeta ....
     svachchheshu pratibimbavat.

Al though it is eternal and all pervading it does not shine (does not
manifest to its fullest) every where.  It only shines forth in its fullest
glory in the pure Buddhi, intellect,  just as reflection on a clean mirror
surface.

Hence consciousness is there all the time - turiya state is not some state
different from all the three states.  All that the experiments and the
alpha waves prove is that the mental vritties are at their minimum as it
will be when the thoughts cease.  That does not prove or disprove
consciousness.  It is only proves that the guy is not thinking!  This can
happen under many circumstances - in sleep in coma and any other states in
between.  ( In fact some people refuse to think even when they need to!)

Another point - thoughtlessness is neither necessary nor sufficient for
realization.  Otherwise one can take drugs to subdue the thoughts - It is
not the thought but the notion that I am the thought is the problem. That
is the aJNaana or avidya.  Avidya can only be removed by vidya, knowledge -
no other solution. again from Atma bodha - JNaanam vinaa moksho na sidyatî
- without knowledge there is no liberation.


Suresh wrote:

>You have talked  of consciousness above.  Since we are a mirror of the
>all prevading Sat-Chit-Ananda ( A side question:  how can we attribute
>characteristics of  Sat-Chit-Ananda,  i.e Being-Consciousness-Bliss to
>the atrribute-less Nirguna Parabrahman? ), there are 3 characteristics
>in us which  distinguish us from machines.

In machines there is SAT aspect - since they exist! Of course one can
analyze this little bit more deeply. That the machines exist can be known
only by a conscious entity- is it not?  That means existence of the
machines are only a thought in the mind of the conscious entity who is
observing.  But that thought is in his consciousness otherwise he cannot be
conscious of the thought and hence conscious of the existence of the
machines.  The thought is therefore the consciousenss itself with a name
and a form. In truth the consciousness is lending its existence to
apparently outside machines!  In true understanidng the outside will not
have anymore meaning.


 >WILL corresponding to SAT,
>CONSCIOUSNESS  corresponding to  CHIT,  and  EMOTION corresponding  to
>ANANDA.  Such an explanation is found in the  introduction of Bhagavad
>Gita Translation by Swami Chidbhavananda.
>
>Do you mean that normally flat-line EEG is there only when the nervous
>system is not active  as in the deep-sleep,  and in turiya there is no
>such dependence?

In turiya there is no more notions that I am the nerves system ( I am the
body), I am the mind, the bunch of thoughts consisting of feelings,
attachments etc. and I am the Buddhi - the intellect.  I have them, but I
am not them - they are in me - I am not in them - that knowledge is there
whether the body active  inactive whether alpha waves exists or not, or
anyother waves are superimposed on it or not.  etc. That one can see the
presence or the absence of alpha waves is the only proof for he existence
of the consicousness. I think there is a pertinent discussion by
Nisargadatta Maharaj in "I am that" in response to a question by someone
who wants a proof!

That is turiya is there when body functions, mind functions intellect
functions, or they do not.  All the misunderstanding that I am an object
and not the subject- - that notions drop out since they are notions. and
not real.

Hari Om.
Sadananda

>
>Namaskar,
>Suresh.

K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623

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What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your
gift to Him: Swami Chinmayananda
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