[Advaita-l] [advaitin] request for PTB support for DSV and EJV

[V Subrahmanian]

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On Sun, 18 Jan, 2026, 12:01 am V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jan 16, 2026 at 4:40 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Subbuji
>> Can we say that in mainstream advaita paramparā where DSV is a valid
>> prakriyā, the adhyāsa ‘sequence’ whereby different upādhis are mentioned,
>> is explained as
>> Ātmā —> viṣayī —> roles of use of mind and body in Jagat (pramātā)
>>
>> Whereas the counterpoint is (as per SSSS)
>> Ātmā —> roles of use of mind and body and experience of Jagat (pramātā)
>>
>> In the latter view, we cannot talk of viṣayitva upādhi  without mind and
>> body and Jagat already being there or taken for granted. So only SDV is
>> permissible, while in the former, DSV is tenable.
>>
>
> Dear Raghav ji,
>
> In my understanding, SSS school does not go with SDV too; for them it's
> straightaway adhyasa. The jiva is adhyaropa who later undergoes apavada. No
> jivanmukti, etc.
>
> regards
> subbu
>
>>
>>
>> Om
>> Raghav
>>
>> On Fri, 16 Jan 2026 at 8:18 AM, V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Michael ji,
>> >
>> > It's the vishayitva upalakshita Atman that's finally upheld by Shankara
>> in
>> > the Adhyasa Bhashyam. In other words Vishayitvam is superposed,
>> adhyaropa,
>> > on Atman and negated. Without doing this it's impossible for Shankara or
>> > the Upanishads to teach the true nature of the Atman. In that method
>> it's
>> > the DSV alone and not SDV that helps Shankara. That's the reason why
>> > Shankara doesn't quote a single creation passage of the Upanishads.
>> *That's
>> > the sole undeniable proof of Shankara subscribing to the DSV EJV.
>> Gaudapada
>> > too adopted this. The Bhagavadgita 2nd and 13th chapters are indeed
>> this.
>> > The DSV EJV is rooted in the Upanishads.*
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > subbu
>> >
>> > On Fri, 16 Jan, 2026, 2:54 am Michael Chandra Cohen, <
>> > michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Namaste Raja Krishnamurti,
>> > > Unless I'm misunderstanding, you are saying the same thing as the
>> Adhaysa
>> > > Bhasya quote, am I right?
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 3:34 PM Raja Krishnamurti via Advaita-l <
>> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Also I do have to add: The Self is not absence of knowing; it is
>> beyond
>> > >> thoughts and action such as knowing. Anbsence of knowing is Ajnana
>> and
>> > >> different from the realized state.With Prem,Raja Krishnamurti
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Thursday, January 15, 2026, 12:30 PM, Raja Krishnamurti via
>> > Advaita-l <
>> > >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Hari Om, Michael ji, One of the fundamental point in Vedanta is that
>> > >> objects like mind, body and intellect are superimposed - adhyaropa on
>> > the
>> > >> substratum - Brahman. As per your statement ‘In addition, without
>> > >> superimposing a notion of Self (anadhyasta ātmabhāva) on the body,
>> one
>> > >> could not be doing any action. This statement is very much and
>> differs
>> > from
>> > >> Advaitha. According to Advaitha, Self alone exists and unreality of
>> body
>> > >> thought and mind as related to action is super imposed on the Atman
>> also
>> > >> known as Brahman. With Om and Prem,Raja Krishnamurti
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Thursday, January 15, 2026, 11:54 AM, Michael Chandra Cohen via
>> > >> Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Namaste Subbu ji,
>> > >> There is no doubt avidya in some form must be taken for granted for
>> the
>> > >> teaching to be relevant. It is as you say,  "So, If the I's relation
>> > with
>> > >> the not-I is not demonstrated, there is no way the discourse takes
>> off."
>> > >> The issue however is the falsification of vishayi that you say will
>> > result
>> > >> in shunyavada, "Even when the adhyaropa world of body mind and all
>> the
>> > >> bondage is negated, apavada, the entity is not negated; only its
>> > 'subject'
>> > >> label is negated. If that's done, then it would be no different from
>> > >> shunyavada, which Shankara terms nairātmya vada.
>> > >>
>> > >> However, here is Shankara in Adhyasa Bhasya negated all vishayitvam
>> as
>> > >> avidya without implication of shunyatvam
>> > >>
>> > >> "We explain (*ucyate*) (listen). *“He who does not have any
>> > identification
>> > >> such as ‘me’ or ‘mine’ (aha**ṃ mama abhimāna rahita) in the body,
>> senses
>> > >> etc., cannot be a knower (pramāt**ṛ). Thus, it is incongruous to say
>> the
>> > >> means of knowledge (pramā**ṇa) such as direct observation and others
>> > >> (pratyakṣādī) function in him (who is not a pramāt**ṛ). That is,
>> without
>> > >> the assumption of senses (indriya-s) there could not be any
>> > >> pramā**ṇa-pramēya
>> > >> vyavahāra since the senses cannot transact without their substratum
>> > >> (adhiṣ**ṭhāna,
>> > >> the body). In addition, without superimposing a notion of Self
>> > (anadhyasta
>> > >> ātmabhāva) on the body, one could not be doing any action. Moreover,
>> > >> without a knower (pramāt**ṛ) the pramā**ṇa-s do not function.
>> Therefore,
>> > >> the means of knowledge such as direct observation and others
>> > (pratyakṣādī)
>> > >> are objects of the ignorant* But, even in the Adhyasa Bhasya Shankara
>> > >> states,  "
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 11:32 AM V Subrahmanian <
>> > v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
>> > >> >
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > Dear Michael ji,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Shankara starts with the experience everyone has: I am so and so,
>> etc.
>> > >> > This will go only if the discourse that is aimed at removing it is
>> > first
>> > >> > put in place. That is the adhyāropa.  So, If the I's relation with
>> the
>> > >> > not-I is not demonstrated, there is no way the discourse takes off.
>> > The
>> > >> > known bound state has to be taken up to the unknown ever-free
>> state.
>> > For
>> > >> > this, all the discourse is essential. Shankara makes it so perfect.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > //The challenge is that a bhavarupa avidya isn't subject to
>> > >> falsification
>> > >> > by knowledge - only an error can be falsified - therefore, it
>> doesn't
>> > >> work
>> > >> > as a provisional teaching. That is SSS's reasoning..//
>> > >> >
>> > >> > This is the fundamental, monumental misconception on the part of
>> SSS.
>> > >> No
>> > >> > one ever has said that the bhavarupa avidya is equivalent to
>> Brahman.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > warm regards
>> > >> > subbu
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 4:37 PM Michael Chandra Cohen via
>> Advaita-l <
>> > >> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> namaste Subbuji,
>> > >> >> isn't vishayi namarupa? why would there be sunya is namarupa is
>> > >> dispelled
>> > >> >> and nitya-shuddha-buddha-mukta-svarupa re-mains? vishaya/vishayi
>> are
>> > >> >> correlative terms, and if the object (vishaya) is negated, the
>> > subject
>> > >> >> (vishayi) must also be negated <AI finished this sentence for me
>> > >> >> unrequested - even AI knows the truth of that last sentence :) >
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Chat can be long winded. All is agreed in your Chat response. The
>> > >> >> challenge
>> > >> >> is that a bhavarupa avidya isn't subject to falsification by
>> > knowledge
>> > >> -
>> > >> >> only an error can be falsified - therefore, it doesn't work as a
>> > >> >> provisional teaching. That is SSS's reasoning..
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I'd like to propose an experiment: would you copy my last response
>> > into
>> > >> >> your chat and request a refutation? Given our discussion about
>> how AI
>> > >> >> responses can be shaped by user framing, I'm curious to see what
>> > >> >> alternative perspective it might offer.
>> > >> >> Regards, michael
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 5:19 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>> > >> >> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
>> > >> >> wrote:
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > Namaste Raghav ji.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> The merger of prANa (and everything else)  in sushupti is
>> accepted
>> > >> by
>> > >> >> even
>> > >> >> >>  SSSS. (Notwithstanding the fact that it’s sabīja and not
>> nirbīja
>> > >> as
>> > >> >> per
>> > >> >> >>  mainstream Vedanta.
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> If the “merger of prANa” is the distinctive characteristic of
>> DSV,
>> > >> we
>> > >> >> have
>> > >> >> >>  to say SSSS unwittingly accepts DSV !)
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > I find SSSS ji to self-contradict himself. So, it is no
>> surprise.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Regards.
>> > >> >> > Sudhanshu Shekhar.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > --
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>> > >> >> > To view this discussion visit
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >>
>> > >>
>> >
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAH9%3D%2BBA5jJmVC0%2BcF_SEhD-TvVu0YWo_NFNk8fWcvPZ9zfxOxg%40mail.gmail.com
>> > >> >> > <
>> > >> >>
>> > >>
>> >
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAH9%3D%2BBA5jJmVC0%2BcF_SEhD-TvVu0YWo_NFNk8fWcvPZ9zfxOxg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > .
>> > >> >> >
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