[Advaita-l] [advaitin] 'Satyasya Satyam..' of the Upanishad explained in the Bhagavatam

[Michael Chandra Cohen]

Namaste Vikram,
WOW, a big response. I can't promise a reply in kind nor a point to point
response though deserved.

// "the universe that is currently being experienced as real is actually
not real, but only appears as if real and is termed mithya".//
--The bhavarupa avidya position is that the empirically 'experienced'
mithya world is 'something' that is indescribably neither real nor unreal
but nonetheless has a positive existence. That is quite different from
Bhasya that attributes mithya to misperceived reality. Here's Hacker on the
issue of what constitutes the 'experienced' by referring back to mulavidya
as the cause of what is experienced.
"Nevertheless, this m uch can be af.
firmed with regard to the differentiation of the interpretation of S. from
that of all other Advaitins-that in his case avidyA is never designated as
material cause of the physical world. It is never referred to as upddana•
karana or prakriti," Philo & Conf, p64

//Our (ajnani's) understanding of a jnani as an individual personality //
--There is no doubt we view the appearance of body and karma. The issue
however concerns the view from Jnana itself - if pramatr, pramana, prameya
are dependent on avidya, where is there 'a' jnani, 'the' jnani or the
instruments to recognize duality or duality itself?  Are there many jnani-s
or just one Jnanatvam?

//The concept of mithyatva / avidya-lesa / jivanmukta etc. is merely a
teaching technique for the ignorant who still has some belief in the
reality of the experienced universe of duality. This entire teaching
technique is merely from within our ajnana's perspective only.//
--Agreed but only if the teaching of avidya-lesa etc. is confirmed by
bhasya, reason and universal experience. Brahman, moksa, avidya are all the
adhyaropita teachings of sastra. I don't see the upaya of adhyaropa/apavada
fundamentally presented by post-Sankara authors.

//Similarly, only for a tattva-darshi jnani guru, who is seen to engage
with the world, the world is known to be mithya. For the rest of us, it is
mere upadesha vakya / teaching.//
--tattva-darshi jnani - is this person knowable to the ignorant? Do you
just assume this of our guru? I've had the blessing of sitting at the feet
of several teachers who I believe were tattva-darshi jnani-s. However, not
one claimed such status yet they taught in a manner that convinced me they
were full blown jnani-'s. So how are we to determine whether this
charismatic guy is a jnani engaging in the world or still, despite a pure
personality and pristine teachings may still be afflicted with empirical
attachments? It is not an uncommon phenomena to learn of the scandalous
demise of one of the spiritual heroes. Let us not assume by personality but
determine by challenging the teaching to resolve doubt what is authentic
Vedanta.

// the entity is erroneously mistaken to be real. //
"the entity' you are giving entity status to snake where indeed the only
entity is rope.

//  Furthermore, the mithya name-form does have a limited place value in
the day-to-day empirical life.//
mithya name-form is empirical life just as dream name-form is dream. The
one who gives mithya a value is no less mithya.

Addendum citations and notes:

I searched SSSS's The Heart of Sri Samkara/HOSS and found 11 references for
mithya - an education but most not on point.  The definition

Gbh 13.26
“‘conjunction’ with a snake is superimpoased on a rope or where silver is
superimposed on nacre through failure to discriminate
the two. This ‘conjunction’ of the Knower of the Body and the body is
essentially superimposition, and may be spoken of as
wrong knowledge (mithya-jnana).” You don’t have to remove wave to find
water nor destroy pot space to find overall space. Dvaitam does not have to
disappear for Advaita. Advaita is svata siddham, svatantra. Advaita does
not have to arise. There is no wave only water – wave is mithya

“When satya is not clear, mithya becomes satya” swami dayanandaji karika1.1

• Nanu: The pramanas must be invalid since they give knowledge about
objects that are unreal. Thus instruction itself loses its point in that it
cannot lead to truth or liberation.
Sankara’s reply: yes, it is quite true the pramanas are no less mithya than
are the objects they propose to reveal however they may “produce” something
real no less than death from a fancied snakebite. But, it is further
argued, death is as unreal as its cause and we are looking for a real
effect out of an unreal cause.  BS bh 2.1.14

Does annihilation mean literal physical annihilation, or does it mean
cancellation and revelation as illusory through knowledge of the real
substratum? It cannot mean
literal physical annihilation, since (in our school) we all admit that
objects are illusory (mithya,
so that there is nothing that could be destroyed). But on the second view,
how can a person (like
the exponent of positive Ignorance) just admit that all objects have purely
phenomenal existence
only (i.e. have their existence limited to their manifestation), and then
speak without
contradiction of their unmanifest (causal) state (avastha)? HOSS p42



On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 1:59 AM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 12:49 AM Michael Chandra Cohen <
> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Subbuji,
>> Sir, with all respect, your linked paper is a fine piece of scholarship,
>> no doubt, but does it reflect Bhasyakara's true intention in his teaching?
>> Not when weighed against the citations and remarks of SSSS in my link but
>> that is my own humble opinion.
>>
>
> Namaste Michael ji,
>
> When something from the Bhashya and Sureshwara does not go well with SSSS,
> that is dismissed as 'not intended by Shankara'. But nothing in unequivocal
> support of the thesis of SSSS is shown from the Bhashya, etc.
>
> warm regards
> subbu
>
>
>
>> Let the reader of bhasya study bhasya  alone, free from later influences
>> and decide the intended teaching on their own - I think that is the
>> position SSSS assumes. Of course, without the pipsqueak voice of the few
>> who have studied SSSS, students will only have exposure to Bhavarupa
>> Vedanta. 🙏🙏🙏 -michael
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 2:12 PM Vikram Jagannathan <vikkyjagan at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaskaram Michael ji,
>>>
>>> << Reality cannot be partial or not real - the law of excluded middle -
>>> either something exists or does not exist. >>
>>>
>>> In a simplified way, the "Law of excluded middle" - a very common stance
>>> taken up by Advaita siddhanta's purvapaksha - is applicable for mutually
>>> exclusive and exhaustive events within the same plane of reference.
>>> When an ajnani perceives a snake, all they see is just the snake; and
>>> the snake is real. For them the rope is non-existent. Law of excluded
>>> middle holds good.
>>> When a jnani perceives a rope, all they see is just the rope; and the
>>> rope is real. For them the snake is non-existent. Law of excluded middle
>>> holds good.
>>> In both these cases, per-se, the "law of excluded middle" is honored.
>>> However, the situation is different when an ajnani gains jnana drishti. The
>>> plane of reference changes, and the previously seen snake is now declared
>>> as mithya. The law of excluded middle is inapplicable in this case with
>>> respect to the earlier perception.
>>>
>>> << It is only a perception taken to be real. >>
>>>
>>> Do you agree to the definition of real being unsublated by any other
>>> knowledge at any point in time? If so, flipping your question back to you,
>>> "taken to be real" - does it mean real or not (law of excluded middle)? If
>>> real, it has to continue remaining real and unsublated by a different
>>> prama. Is that the case?
>>>
>>> prostrations,
>>> Vikram
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 12:38 PM V Subrahmanian <
>>> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Michael ji,
>>>>
>>>> Shankara and Sureshwara have accepted three levels of Reality in the
>>>> Taittiriyopanishad.  Here is the blog detailing that:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://adbhutam.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/paramarthika-vyavaharika-satyam/
>>>>
>>>> warm regards
>>>> subbu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 5:36 PM Michael Chandra Cohen <
>>>> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Subbuji,
>>>>>
>>>>> "Relative reality" is misleading and oxymoronic. Reality cannot be
>>>>> partial or not real - the law of excluded middle - either something exists
>>>>> or does not exist. Snake is not a relative reality - it is
>>>>> rope misperceived.  The fear of snake is a reaction to the misperception of
>>>>> rope but not a reaction caused by the 'relative reality' of an imagined
>>>>> snake. To impose reality upon error or misperception whether 'borrowed' or
>>>>> 'relative' or 'temporary' etc. is a misguided teaching.  In that way we
>>>>> need to view vyavaharika. It is only a perception taken to be real.
>>>>> ,
>>>>> Here are 5 pages of citations from SSSS's The Method of the
>>>>> Vedanta/MOV and elsewhere that correct this misunderstanding of Bhasya.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 2:22 AM V Subrahmanian <
>>>>> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 2.3.6 is the famous mantra, a part of
>>>>>> which reads:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> अथात आदेशो नेति नेति न ह्येतस्मादिति नेत्यन्यत्परमस्त्यथ नामधेयं
>>>>>> सत्यस्य सत्यमिति प्राणा वै सत्यं तेषामेष सत्यम् ॥ ६ ॥
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Now therefore the description (of Brahman): 'Not this, not this.'
>>>>>> Because there is no other and more appropriate description than this 'Not
>>>>>> this.' Now Its name: "The Truth of truth.' The vital force is truth, and It
>>>>>> is the Truth of that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The gist of the mantra is: the term 'prāṇā:' signifies the entire
>>>>>> creation, both at the individual level and the cosmic level. At the
>>>>>> individual level we have the subtle body, the sense organs, that illumine
>>>>>> the creation outside the body. The world outside, being insentient, get
>>>>>> illumined by the subtle body/organs. This two-fold categorization can be
>>>>>> compared to the 'kṣetram' (field) of the 13th chapter of the Bh.Gita. There
>>>>>> too in the 5th and the 6th verses the entire kṣetram is presented as
>>>>>> consisting of the subtle body of the individual and the outside world. This
>>>>>> is termed 'satyam', in its primary sense, vācyārtha. And the 'satyam' of
>>>>>> that ('prāṇā:' - kṣetram) is Brahman, the absolute Satyam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From the above study of the mantra, we derive the meaning: the first
>>>>>> 'satyam' (satyasya) is the created world. This has only a
>>>>>> dependent/relative reality. It derives its reality from Brahman, the
>>>>>> Absolute Satyam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is interesting to note that we have a verse in the Bhagavatam that
>>>>>> brings out the above two levels of reality:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> आत्मानमेव आत्मतया अविजानतां
>>>>>>
>>>>>> तेनैव जातं निखिलं प्रपञ्चितम् ।
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ज्ञानेन भूयोऽपि च तत्प्रलीयते
>>>>>>
>>>>>> रज्ज्वां अहेर्भोगभवाभवौ यथा ।। 10.14.25
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A person who mistakes a rope for a snake becomes fearful, but he then
>>>>>> gives up his fear upon realizing that the so-called snake does not
>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Similarly, for those who fail to recognize You, Brahman, as the
>>>>>> Supreme Soul of all
>>>>>> souls, the *expansive illusory material existence arises,* but
>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>> (realization) of You (Your True Nature) at once causes it  (the
>>>>>> variegated
>>>>>> world of plurality) to subside.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the above verse we see the expression of relative reality, the
>>>>>> world, and the Absolute Reality, Brahman. This is exactly the teaching of
>>>>>> the Upanishad through the pithy statement: satyasya satyam.  The rope is
>>>>>> the Satyam and the snake is the satyam, in the analogy of the Bhagavatam.
>>>>>> There itself, the relatively real, the world, is contrasted with the
>>>>>> Absolutely Real, Brahman. The state of ignorance is signified by the world
>>>>>> and the state of realization is conveyed by the term Brahman. One can
>>>>>> recall the verse 2.69:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> या निशा सर्वभूतानां तस्यां जागर्ति संयमी ।
>>>>>>
>>>>>> यस्यां जाग्रति भूतानि सा निशा पश्यतो मुनेः ॥ ६९ ॥
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.69 The self-restrained man keeps awake during that which is night
>>>>>> for all creatures. That during which creatures keep awake, it is night to
>>>>>> the seeing sage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here the waking and sleep are symbolic of real and unreal: For the
>>>>>> Jnani, the waking means the Absolute Truth. For the ajnanis waking is to
>>>>>> the relative world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The relatively real has no reality of its own and hence is only
>>>>>> dependently real, paratantra satyam. On the other hand, Brahman, the
>>>>>> Absolute Reality, does not need to acquire reality from any other source.
>>>>>> The world needs reality from Brahman. All this is implied by the
>>>>>> Upanishadic statement: satyasya satyam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why does the Upanishad call the vyavaharika, the world, 'satyam'?
>>>>>> The Upanishad is alluding to, doing anuvāda of, the uninformed person
>>>>>> holding the world to be real, untaught.  This has to be corrected. Hence
>>>>>> the Upanishad *as though* holds the world to be satyam and goes on
>>>>>> to teach, in the manner of 'from the known to the unknown', and the
>>>>>> adhyāropa-apavāda nyāya, the truth that Brahman is indeed the absolute
>>>>>> Satyam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are many such verses in the Bhagavatam that carry the
>>>>>> Upanishadic purport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Om Tat Sat
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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