[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: Is there a real jagat?
V Subrahmanian
v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
Thu Oct 2 14:25:35 EDT 2025
On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 5:29 PM <raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Namaste Subbuji
> Wouldn’t both viśiṣṭādvaita as well as advaita agree on the anāditvaṁ of
> dehātma-bhrama implying both schools look at pūrva-bhrama saṁskāra causing
> subsequent janma with its attendant dehātma bhāva?
>
Dear Raghav ji,
I think since all schools accept anaditva of samsara, the body adhyasa also
must be admitted to be anādi. And the bhrama samskara perpetuates the
samsara.
>
> The only difference being the satyatva of the body and mithyātva of the
> body?
>
Yes, while Advaita would hold the body is mithya (we have a classification:
mukhyātma = Sākshi, mithyātma = body mind complex and gaunātma = the
identification with mine - persons, property, etc. outside one's body.
Shankara has specified the last two in the Sundara Pandya verses he has
cited at the end of the Tat tu samanvayāt bhashya. *गौणमिथ्या**त्मनो*ऽसत्त्वे
पुत्रदेहादिबाधनात् । सद्ब्रह्मात्माहमित्येवं बोधे कार्यं कथं भवेत् ॥ the
other schools would not hold the body mithya as that would lead to holding
the entire world mithya. But the Gita 13th ch. is clear: the body mind
organs complex and the outside world are all kshetram and as per Shankara
bhashya, the last verse of that chapter says: the kshetram is mithya.
warm regards
subbu
> Om
> Raghav
>
>
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> On Thursday, October 2, 2025, 3:54 PM, V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 12:19 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
> kalyanchakravarthy2021 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Namaste Sri Subbuji
> >
> > I have fundamentally no problem with any of the Bhagavata purana quotes
> > you gave.
> >
> > However, your methodology of trying to counter a purely logical question
> > from dvaitins/vishishta-advaitins using scripture, is incorrect, because
> > the other parties are sure to have their own explanations of such
> > scriptural passages.
> >
> > Meaning, I am saying that a logical question must be countered purely
> > logically, not by resorting to scripture.
> >
> > Even if you disagree with what I say, please note that at least I am
> > looking for a logic based answer to this question.
> >
>
> Dear Kalyan ji,
>
> It is solely with the difficulty they face to give a logical answer to that
> do the non-Advaitins have devised a different way of explaining those
> verses. I have already asked the counter question: What about the Atma
> adhyasa in the body-mind complex or the reverse? Should one not have seen a
> real body mind complex before he superimposed the same on the Atman? If
> they find a reply to that, then they would not pose that question to the
> Advaitin.
>
> The Advaitins have already provided the answer: Adhyasa requires only
> samskara and a samskara can be generated even from an unreal thing.
>
>
>
> > Best Regards
> > Kalyan
> >
> > On Thursday, 2 October 2025 at 11:40:21 am UTC+5:30 v.subrahmanian wrote:
> >
> >> The Bhagavatam gives the rope-snake and garland-snake analogies for the
> >> world:
> >>
> >> आत्मानमेव आत्मतया अविजानतां
> >> तेनैव जातं निखिलं प्रपञ्चितम् ।
> >> ज्ञानेन भूयोऽपि च तत्प्रलीयते
> >> रज्ज्वामहेर्भोगभवाभवौ यथा ।। 10.14.25
> >>
> >> A person who mistakes a rope for a snake becomes fearful, but he then
> >> gives up his fear upon realizing that the so-called snake does not
> exist.
> >> Similarly, for those who fail to recognize You as the Supreme Soul of
> all
> >> souls, the expansive illusory material existence arises, but knowledge
> of
> >> You at once causes it to subside.
> >>
> >> यस्मिन्निदं सदसदात्मतया विभाति
> >> माया विवेकविधुति स्रजि वाहिबुद्धिः ।
> >> तं नित्यमुक्तपरिशुद्धविशुद्धतत्त्वं
> >> प्रत्यूढकर्मकलिलप्रकृतिं प्रपद्ये ॥३८॥ Bhagavatam 4/22/38
> >>
> >> The creation is appearing in Brahman due to maya, just as one would take
> >> a rope for a snake. The true nature of Brahman can be known by viveka.
> >> Obeisance to that Brahman that is nitya mukta shuddha and free from the
> >> blemish of karma.
> >>
> >> Thus Veda Vyasa has used the rope-snake analogy for the world-appearance
> >> in Brahman. It is not just the Advaitins that use the analogy.
> >>
> >> warm regards
> >> subbu
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 9:37 AM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
> >> kalyanchakr... at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Namaste Sri Vikramji
> >>>
> >>> In this case, how does this answer the original question?
> >>>
> >>> Lets recap a bit. I am dropping off English and using some Sanskrit
> >>> terms.
> >>>
> >>> Opponent is claiming that - Mithya snake can be superimposed on a Satya
> >>> Rope only if there is an experience of a Satya snake beforehand. (Any
> >>> complicated examples one can think of would still always involve a
> Satya
> >>> entity.)
> >>>
> >>> Best Regards
> >>> Kalyan
> >>>
> >>> On Thursday, 2 October 2025 at 7:43:22 am UTC+5:30 Vikram Jagannathan
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Namaskaram Kalyan ji,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> << it appears to me that Sri Shankara rejects beginningless series of
> >>>> mental impressions (without corresponding ontological entities like
> >>>> objects). I think your response proposes beginningless series of
> mental
> >>>> impressions. >>
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, Bhagavan Bhashyakara rejects beginningless series of mental
> >>>> impressions without corresponding ontological entities like objects.
> >>>> However, my response (which I believe to be Advaita response) is
> >>>> beginningless series of impressions (karma / vasanas) *but includes*
> >>>> the corresponding ontological entities (categorized as mithya).
> >>>>
> >>>> Without the ontological reality of the objects, the mental impressions
> >>>> become baseless & illogical, which is the criticism against Buddhists;
> >>>> however with the ontological reality of the objects there is no more
> any
> >>>> logical flaw.
> >>>>
> >>>> prostrations,
> >>>> Vikram
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 7:01 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
> >>>> kalyanchakr... at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Namaste Sri Vikramji
> >>>>>
> >>>>> >There is a subtle, and very pertinent, difference between Bhagavan
> >>>>> Bhashyakara's argument against the Buddhists and Advaita's response
> to your
> >>>>> question.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I hope you will pardon me if I call it "your response" and not
> >>>>> "advaita's response", at least until I know that this is the
> position
> >>>>> adopted by traditional teachers of advaita.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Secondly, Please note, I am not in anyway suggesting similarities
> here
> >>>>> between Buddhism and Advaita.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Having clarified the above -Whether it is your response or the
> >>>>> Buddhist position, it appears to me that Sri Shankara rejects
> beginningless
> >>>>> series of mental impressions (without corresponding ontological
> entities
> >>>>> like objects). I think your response proposes beginningless series of
> >>>>> mental impressions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best Regards
> >>>>> Kalyan
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>
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