[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Is there a real jagat?

V Subrahmanian v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
Wed Oct 1 12:51:29 EDT 2025


On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 7:24 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
kalyanchakravarthy2021 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Sri Subbuji
>
> >The question arises: If the Atma has to identify itself with the body by
> taking the body to be the Self, there needs to be a 'real' body which the
> Atma has experienced/seen before coming to identify with the body, in other
> words, seeing the body in the place of the Atma, just like the question
> about the world being seen in the place of Brahman precedes an experience
> of a real world prior to the jagat bhrama. One can easily see the absurdity
> of the question.
>
> This is a very interesting argument. If the Self is mistaken to be the
> body, there must be a real body somewhere.
>
> But this argument does not work because the dvaitins already accept the
> existence of a real body, unlike the advaitins who hold the body to be
> unreal.
>

Dear Kalyan ji,

That acceptance is what is questioned and the problem there is shown.

regards
subbu



> I do not know what is the position of vishishtha-advaitins.
>
> The dvaitins will say that since they accept a real body anyway, the above
> argument does not work against them.
>
> Best Regards
> Kalyan
>
> On Wednesday, 1 October 2025 at 4:26:55 pm UTC+5:30 v.subrahmanian wrote:
>
>> By asking a counter-question, we can arrive at a conclusion to the
>> question of a 'real world' that precedes the world bhrama. The body-bhrama
>> is not separable from the world-bhrama because the body also is part of the
>> world.  The 13th Chapter Bh.Gita teaches that the whole of the creation
>> consists of two divisions: the outside inert world and the body-mind-organs
>> complex that is required to interact with the world. Consciousness is
>> beyond both these components of the world as the ultimate observer.
>>
>> All Vedantic systems accept that the identification of the Self with the
>> body-mind complex is a 'bhrama', error:
>>
>> Shankara's Adhyāsa bhāshya is a document on this very topic.
>>
>> श्रीभगवद्यामुनमुनिविरचितगीतार्थसंग्रहव्याख्या   Ramanuja system
>>
>> नित्यात्मसङ्गकर्मेदृगोचरा सांख्ययोगधीः । द्वितीये स्थितधीलक्षा प्रोक्ता
>> तन्मोहशान्तये ॥6॥
>> संख्यया- बुद्धयाऽवधारणीयमात्मतत्त्वं सांस्व्यम्, तद्विषयबुद्धिस्सांख्यधीः
>> । नित्यात्मगोचरेति तद्विकरणम् । एवमत्र असङ्गकर्महाशब्देनापि
>> योगशब्दार्थविवरणादपौनरुक्त्यम् । सांख्ययोगयोः-सांख्ययोगयोधः । स्थितधीः..
>> स्थितप्रज्ञता, ज्ञाननिष्ठेत्यर्थः । सा साध्यत्वेन लक्षं यस्यास्सा तथोक्ता । *तन्मोहशान्तये
>> उपकारस्य अर्जुनस्य देहात्मादिभ्रमनिवृत्त्यर्थम् ।   Body-bhrama*
>>
>>
>> बुभुक्षा च पिपासा च शोकमोहौ जरामृती ॥ 26 ॥
>> षडूर्मयः
>> *प्राणबुद्धिदेहेषु स्याद्द्वयन्द्वयम् ।आत्मत्वेन भ्रमन्त्यत्र वादिनः
>> कोशपञ्चके* ॥ 27 ॥  Body bhrama
>>
>> Madhwa:
>>
>> 'अतो भ्रान्त्यादिसम्बन्धो नास्य क्वचन युज्यते । भ्रान्त्या जीवस्य संसार
>> ईशज्ञानाद्विलीयते ।
>> *भ्रान्तिर्देहाद्यभिमति*रीशज्ञानाद्विनश्यति''॥ इति ब्रह्माण्डे ॥ १०-१२ ॥ *
>> Identification with body, etc. is bhranti. *
>>
>> 'आत्मभावः शरीरे तु द्रव्यभ्रम उदाहृतः ।   *The identification of the
>> Self with the body is bhrama.*
>>
>> The Bh.Gita 13th chapter is also about this. Also the Upanishads have
>> this very topic to discuss and offer solutions.
>>
>> The question arises: If the Atma has to identify itself with the body by
>> taking the body to be the Self, there needs to be a 'real' body which the
>> Atma has experienced/seen before coming to identify with the body, in other
>> words, seeing the body in the place of the Atma, just like the question
>> about the world being seen in the place of Brahman precedes an experience
>> of a real world prior to the jagat bhrama.  One can easily see the
>> absurdity of the question.
>>
>> The inevitable conclusion will be: the body is also imagined/imaginary.
>> Else, can anyone tell who, Ishwara or Prakriti, created a real body and
>> placed it before the Atman to let the Atman to get the first ever bhrama of
>> body-identification? If such a body was indeed created, was it a human body
>> or that of any animal or any other species? What is the rationale behind
>> choosing such a body? Why should the Atma be made to go with x body and not
>> y body?   There are no answers to such questions as all Vedanta schools
>> accept anādi samsara which means there has been anādi world (in srishti,
>> sthiti, laya modes) and anādi jivatva which means embodiedness as anādi.
>> Thus, the question: was there a real world before the world bhrama can
>> happen? addressed to the Advaitin alone is unreasonable and will only
>> bounce back on the questioner.  The questioner would not like to accept the
>> body and world are unreal but they can't choose otherwise as there is no go
>> for them too to accept the world mithyatva as the body-mithyatva can never
>> be avoided by them.
>>
>> warm regards
>> subbu
>>
>>
>>


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