[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: avidyA is adhyasta (superimposed) in AtmA

[V Subrahmanian]

On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 10:37 AM Raghav Kumar <raghavkumar72 at yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Subbuji
> Indeed. And I may add that this "attribution" of avidyA to Brahman
> obviously cannot be from the pAramArthika standpoint; so it is from the
> vyAvahArika standpoint.
>
> The question that would then remain would be "Why would anyone start to
> seek/pursue this avidyA-tinged Brahman?", as Bhaskar ji asked.  Since this
> has already been answered, I shall be brief . Brahman is understood as
> avidyAvAn-iva upon vedAntic enquiry, not before enquiry.
>

Very nicely put, Raghav ji.  In fact Shankara has himself answered that
question too, to the fullest satisfaction of any questioner:

The realization of aham brahma asmi has been articulated by Shankara in the
Brahma sutra bhashya thus:

 पूर्वसिद्धकर्तृत्वभोक्तृत्वविपरीतं हि *त्रिष्वपि
कालेष्वकर्तृत्वाभोक्तृत्वस्वरू*पं *ब्रह्माहमस्मि,*नेतः पूर्वमपि कर्ता
भोक्ता वा *अहमासम्, *नेदानीम्, नापि भविष्यत्काले — इति ब्रह्मविदवगच्छति ;
एवमेव च मोक्ष उपपद्यते ; ४.१.२३. इति ।

Contrary to the previous thinking that I am doer-enjoyer, in all the three
periods of time I am Brahman that is neither doer nor enjoyer. Before I was
not a doer-enjoyer, nor now, nor even in the future will I be doer-enjoyer
- such is the realization of a Knower. *BSB 4.1.23.*

Nothing can be more direct than this:  This statement 1. accepts there was
avidya before and 2.that upon realization it would be realized that there
was no avidya even before.

That makes Brahman pure in all three periods of time.  Untaintable.

warm regards
subbu



>
> Prima facie, Ishvara is the sRShTA of all the adhArmik people too. We
> cannot start with akartR Ishvara. Only upon vedAntic enquiry, Ishvara who
> is sRShTi-kartA, merely as-though creates.  Really Ishvara is akartA - that
> is the conclusion of vedAntic enquiry, not it's starting point, of anuvAda
> of the initial experience of the world.
>
> Unless Ishvara is discovered as akartA, the fact that law of karma
> accounts for adharma and dukha etc., would not absolve Him of affliction.
> Because the law of karma is also a manifestation of Ishvara.
>
>
> Om
> Raghav
>
>
> Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer
> <https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=NativePlacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_EmailSignatureGrowth_YahooMail:Search,Organize,Conquer&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000945&af_sub5=OrganizeConquer__Static_>
>
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 at 9:39 am, V Subrahmanian
> <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
> Even in the Br.Up.Bh. 1.4.10 Aham Brahmasmi, Shankara discusses at length
> and concludes: We have to attribute avidya to Brahman alone because: Avidya
> can be for a sentient entity alone, and there is no other sentient entity
> than Brahman.
> Nevertheless, such avidya is mithyA and the attribution is also an as if.
> Only then the pAramArthika Adviteeya status of Brahman stands unchallenged.
> So, the system of Advaita is very strongly built by Shankara himself, on
> the basis of the shruti.
>
> regards
> subbu
>
> On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 8:28 AM 'Raghav Kumar' via advaitin <
> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Namaste Sudhanshu ji
> Thank you for sharing these two verses.
> Did SSSS ji reconcile these two vArtika verses anywhere? Because as I
> understand, they accept Sri Sureshvaracharaya to a great extent.
>
>  I meant the verses that assert clearly that
>
> "asya brahmaNah avidyA" is a statement whose acceptance within the realm
> of avidyA *does not* shatter Advaita to pieces (as colorfully expressed by
> SSSS).
> ब्रह्माविद्यावदिष्टं चेन्ननु  दोषो महानयम् ।।
> निरविद्ये च, विद्याया आनर्थक्यं प्रसज्यते ।। १७५ ।।
> If you hold that Brahman is avidyA-vAn, then is it not a great defect? And
> if you say that Brahman is without avidyA, then there will arise the
> contingency of uselessness of vidyA.
> नाविद्याऽस्येत्यविद्यायामेवाऽऽसित्वा प्रकल्प्यते ।।
> ब्रह्मटृष्ट्या त्वविद्येयं न कथंचन युज्यते ।। १७६ ।।
> No. Because, "avidyA is of Brahman" is stated while sitting in avidyA.
> From the point of view of Brahman, the avidyA itself is not possible to be
> postulated."
>
> Nothing could be clearer than this. And sva-para-nirvAhikA nature of
> avidyA ensures that there is no AtmAshraya doSha (the logical fallacy of
> self-dependence) either.
>
>
> Om
> Raghav
>
>
> Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer
> <https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=NativePlacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_EmailSignatureGrowth_YahooMail:Search,Organize,Conquer&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000945&af_sub5=OrganizeConquer__Static_>
>
> On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 at 5:21 pm, Sudhanshu Shekhar
> <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hare Krishna Bhaskar prabhu ji.
>
> You did not answer my question as to why BhAshyakAra is using the words
> MAyA and avidyA interchangeably here.
>
> Anyway, let me answer your questions:
>
> So as per your understanding, since brahman in itself having the avidyA so
> bhAshyakAra used the mAyA and avidyA interchangeably…
>
>
> Yes prabhu ji. anAtmA cannot have avidyA, right! Because anAtmA is
> ajnAna-kArya. So, only AtmA i.e. Brahman can have avidyA. "can have" means
> locus. Naishkarmya Siddhi says -  *एवं तावत् नाऽनात्मनोऽज्ञानित्वम्, नापि
> तद्विषयमज्ञानम्।  पारिशेष्यादात्मन एवास्त्वज्ञानम्.*
>
> So, Brahman is locus of avidyA i.e. Brahman "has" avidyA is undisputed
> siddhAnta of advaita vedAnta.
>
> However, the point is - "Brahman has avidyA" is stated while sitting in
> avidyA. Please see BrihadAraNyak Sambandha bhAshya VArtika:
>
> *PUrvapaksha*
>
> ब्रह्माविद्यावदिष्टं चेन्ननु दोषो महानयम् ।।
> निरविद्ये च, विद्याया आनर्थक्यं प्रसज्यते ।। १७५ ।।
>
> If you hold that Brahman is avidyA-vAn, then is it not a great defect? And
> if you say that Brahman is without avidyA, then there will arise the
> contingency of uselessness of vidyA.
>
> *SiddhAntI*
>
> नाविद्याऽस्येत्यविद्यायामेवाऽऽसित्वा प्रकल्प्यते ।।
> ब्रह्मटृष्ट्या त्वविद्येयं न कथंचन युज्यते ।। १७६ ।।
>
> No. Because, "avidyA is of Brahman" is stated while sitting in avidyA.
> From the point of view of Brahman, the avidyA itself is not possible to be
> postulated.
>
>
> Do you think / argue that this is an unambiguous statement by bhAshyakAra
> and he is emphasizing here that brahman is having the avidyA ??
>
>
> These statements clearly describe that BhAshyakAra is using MAyA and
> avidyA interchangeably.
>
>  BTW, what do you going to achieve by realizing this avidyAvanta brahman
> who is at the same time nishkriya, nirvayava, nirguNa (but avidyAvanta) and
> cannot do anything on its own!!?? 😊
>
>
> So, Brahman is nishkriya, niravayava, nirguNa is a statement of apavAda,
> whereas Brahman has avidyA is a statement of adhyArOpa. The apavAda
> statement will lead to rejection of avidyA and ensure situating as
> nishkriya Brahman. This is the obvious meaning coming out of it.
>
> Regards.
> Sudhanshu Shekhar.
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "advaitin" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAH9%3D%2BBBC%2BEArFpUfakpOw_rNMo18cf9arCuD134rJOfZSBK5pQ%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAH9%3D%2BBBC%2BEArFpUfakpOw_rNMo18cf9arCuD134rJOfZSBK5pQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "advaitin" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/1887621836.9075582.1735873080891%40mail.yahoo.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/1887621836.9075582.1735873080891%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "advaitin" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAKk0Te0_r7hnS4-QLJjKpx1%3DqVX7y38h3784%3DPF1f-MS_-Dmxw%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAKk0Te0_r7hnS4-QLJjKpx1%3DqVX7y38h3784%3DPF1f-MS_-Dmxw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
>