[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Asked of Chatgpt: "Are there any definitions or descriptions that depict a positive ignorance in Sankara's commentary on the Brahma Sutras or classic 10 Upanishads whether in context or otherwise?

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Michael Ji,

Also note that **veiling** by avidyA  is partial, not complete.

Also, reg //  1. **mithyā + ajñāna**:
   - **mithyā**: This means "false" or "illusory." It refers to something
that is not real or not ultimately true but appears to have some form of
existence.
   - **ajñāna**: This means "ignorance" or "lack of knowledge." It denotes
a lack of true knowledge about reality //,

This understanding is totally different from both the  standard debated
versions of  **mithyā + ajñāna** and   **mithyā + jñāna**. It makes the
meaning  **  This means "ignorance" or "lack of knowledge" which is "false"
or "illusory" **. That would be great indeed. ** false or illusory lack of
knowledge **.

Regards




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On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 2:14 PM H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Michael Ji,
>
> What an interpretation!!
>
> //  1. **Veil as Lack of Knowledge:**
>    - **Absence of True Knowledge:** In this interpretation, the "veil"
> represents the absence of true knowledge. Just as a veil obstructs one's
> vision, ignorance obstructs one's understanding of the true nature of the
> self (Brahman). When the veil is removed, one sees clearly, implying that
> when ignorance (lack of knowledge) is dispelled by knowledge, the true
> nature of the self is revealed //,
>
> **obstruction**, **removal of veil** clearly imply a **positive entity**.
> They represent *positive* causes which *prevent* rise of **True
> Knowledge**. It is not **absence of True Knowledge**. It is **prevention**
> of True Knowledge. When it is destroyed, True Knowledrge automatically
> arises.
>
> There are any number of verses in BUBV, TUBV of Swami Sureswaracharya
> which can be cited in support. But if we are not in agreement on this
> fundamental understanding of what **absence** and **prevention** of True
> Knowledge means, there is no purpose served in citing those verses.
>
> Regards
>
>
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> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 1:54 PM Michael Chandra Cohen <
> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> yes, Chandramouli, I too questioned the term, 'veil' and Chatgpt answered
>> concerned Suresvara's take on ignorance and the use of the term though the
>> same applied to my earlier question of veil in Bhasyakara alone.
>>
>> The metaphor of ignorance as a "veil" can be interpreted in two different
>> ways, which depend on the broader philosophical context in which the
>> metaphor is used. Let's explore both interpretations, focusing on whether
>> it indicates a positive ignorance or a lack of knowledge.
>>
>> ### Ignorance as a Veil
>>
>> 1. **Veil as Lack of Knowledge:**
>>    - **Absence of True Knowledge:** In this interpretation, the "veil"
>> represents the absence of true knowledge. Just as a veil obstructs one's
>> vision, ignorance obstructs one's understanding of the true nature of the
>> self (Brahman). When the veil is removed, one sees clearly, implying that
>> when ignorance (lack of knowledge) is dispelled by knowledge, the true
>> nature of the self is revealed.
>>    - **Analogous to Darkness:** This view is analogous to darkness being
>> dispelled by light. Darkness itself is not a positive entity; it is simply
>> the absence of light. Similarly, ignorance is the absence of knowledge, and
>> when knowledge is gained, ignorance disappears.
>>
>> 2. **Veil as Positive Ignorance:**
>>    - **Substantive Obstruction:** In the positive ignorance
>> interpretation, the veil could be seen as a substantive obstruction that
>> actively hides the truth. This implies that ignorance is not just a passive
>> absence of knowledge but a positive presence that creates false perceptions
>> or superimpositions (adhyasa).
>>    - **Misleading Influence:** Here, the veil (ignorance) has a
>> misleading influence, causing one to perceive the non-self (anatman) as the
>> self (atman), and to see duality where there is actually non-duality.
>>
>> ### Context in Suresvara's Writings
>>
>> To determine which interpretation aligns with Suresvara's views, let's
>> consider his usage of the veil metaphor and his explicit statements about
>> avidya in his works.
>>
>> #### Evidence from Suresvara's Works
>>
>> 1. **Naiskarmya Siddhi:**
>>    - Suresvara often describes avidya in terms of a lack of discernment
>> and knowledge, emphasizing the removal of ignorance through
>> self-realization. For example, in *Naiskarmya Siddhi 1.43*: "The cessation
>> of ignorance is brought about by the realization of the true nature of the
>> self, just as darkness is dispelled by light."
>>    - This suggests that he views ignorance as an absence of knowledge,
>> akin to darkness being dispelled by light.
>>
>> 2. **Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika:**
>>    - Suresvara discusses the superimposition (adhyasa) caused by
>> ignorance but focuses on the correction of this false perception through
>> the acquisition of knowledge. In *Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika 1.4.328*,
>> he states: "Avidya is the ignorance that misidentifies the self with the
>> non-self. It is dispelled by the knowledge of the self."
>>    - Here, avidya is again presented as a lack of true knowledge,
>> corrected by gaining the right understanding.
>>
>> 3. **Taittiriya Upanishad Vartika:**
>>    - Suresvara uses the metaphor of light dispelling darkness to describe
>> the role of knowledge in removing ignorance. For example, in *Taittiriya
>> Upanishad Vartika 1.6.1*: "Avidya, the ignorance of the self, is dispelled
>> by the light of knowledge, just as darkness is dispelled by the rising sun."
>>    - This metaphor aligns with the interpretation of ignorance as a lack
>> of knowledge.
>>
>> ### Conclusion
>>
>> Based on Suresvara's writings and his consistent use of metaphors and
>> explanations, it is evident that:
>>
>> - **Ignorance as a Veil:** Suresvara's use of the veil metaphor indicates
>> a lack of knowledge rather than a positive ignorance. The veil obstructs
>> the true understanding, and its removal (through knowledge) reveals the
>> true nature of the self.
>> - **Lack of Knowledge:** Suresvara emphasizes that avidya is an absence
>> of true knowledge about the self, which is dispelled by gaining
>> self-knowledge. This is analogous to light dispelling darkness, where
>> darkness (ignorance) is simply the absence of light (knowledge).
>>
>> Therefore, Suresvara views ignorance as a lack of knowledge, and the
>> metaphor of a veil in his writings supports this interpretation.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:08 AM H S Chandramouli <
>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste.
>>>
>>> Reg  //  There are many others which can be interpreted to lead to the
>>> same conclusion. However I am not reproducing those statements //,
>>>
>>> I mean that there are many others which can be interpreted to lead to
>>> the conclusion that avidyA is a **positive entity**.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 1:32 PM H S Chandramouli <
>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Michael Ji,
>>>>
>>>> Copying below a few statements from your post which directly contradict
>>>> the conclusion. There are many others which can be interpreted to lead to
>>>> the same conclusion. However I am not reproducing those statements.
>>>>
>>>> //   **Non-Duality**: Shankaracharya emphasizes that Brahman is the
>>>> only reality and avidya is simply the veil over this truth  //.
>>>>
>>>> //   **Absence of Positive Ignorance**: Shankaracharya does not
>>>> typically define avidya as a positive, active force. Instead, he
>>>> characterizes it more as a lack or veil over the true knowledge of Brahman
>>>> //.
>>>>
>>>> Notice the use of the word **veil**. Is **veil** an existent or a
>>>> nonexistent? Those who present avidyA as a **positive entity** very often
>>>> use the same term, namely **veil** , to convey the meaning that avidyA is a
>>>> **positive entity**. I also follow the same.  How do you understand it?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:16 AM Michael Chandra Cohen <
>>>> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Adi Shankaracharya's commentaries on the **Brahma Sutras** and the
>>>>> **classic Upanishads** are pivotal in understanding his view on **avidya**
>>>>> (ignorance). The notion of avidya as positive ignorance versus a mere
>>>>> absence of knowledge is a significant interpretative issue. To address your
>>>>> question, let's delve into the definitions and descriptions of avidya in
>>>>> Shankaracharya’s works, focusing on whether they depict avidya as a
>>>>> positive ignorance.
>>>>>
>>>>> ### Analysis of Avidya in Shankaracharya’s Commentaries
>>>>>
>>>>> #### **1. Brahma Sutras**
>>>>>
>>>>> **Brahma Sutras (Brahmasutras) Commentary:**
>>>>> - **Sutra 1.1.1**: The Brahma Sutras start with "Athato Brahma
>>>>> Jijnasa," which translates to "Now, therefore, the inquiry into Brahman."
>>>>> Shankaracharya’s commentary here emphasizes the need to understand Brahman,
>>>>> the ultimate reality, and addresses the role of avidya in obscuring this
>>>>> knowledge.
>>>>> - **Role of Avidya**: In his commentary, Shankaracharya typically
>>>>> describes avidya in terms of its effects, such as causing mistaken identity
>>>>> and suffering, rather than as a positive entity. For example, he describes
>>>>> avidya as leading to the false perception of duality but does not always
>>>>> characterize it as an active, positive force.
>>>>> - **Non-Duality**: Shankaracharya emphasizes that Brahman is the only
>>>>> reality and avidya is simply the veil over this truth. The focus is on
>>>>> dispelling ignorance through knowledge rather than combating an independent
>>>>> force of ignorance.
>>>>>
>>>>> #### **2. Classic Upanishads**
>>>>>
>>>>> **Chandogya Upanishad Commentary:**
>>>>> - **Chapter 6, Section 1**: Shankaracharya explains the concept of
>>>>> avidya as the cause of mistaken identity. He describes how individuals
>>>>> mistake themselves for the body and mind rather than recognizing their true
>>>>> nature as Brahman.
>>>>> - **Positive Ignorance**: Shankaracharya’s commentary here does not
>>>>> typically depict avidya as an active, positive force but rather as the
>>>>> absence of knowledge about the true nature of the Self. The focus is on
>>>>> removing this ignorance to reveal the ever-present reality of Brahman.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Mandukya Upanishad Commentary:**
>>>>> - **The Three States**: In his commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad,
>>>>> Shankaracharya discusses the states of consciousness (waking, dreaming, and
>>>>> deep sleep) and the ultimate reality (Turiya). He uses the concept of
>>>>> avidya to explain how the Self is obscured in these states but does not
>>>>> present avidya as an active force.
>>>>> - **Avidya’s Role**: Avidya is discussed as the source of ignorance
>>>>> about the Self’s true nature, leading to the mistaken perception of the
>>>>> world. Again, the treatment focuses on the lack of knowledge rather than an
>>>>> independent force.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Commentary:**
>>>>> - **Chapter 4, Section 3**: Shankaracharya discusses the nature of
>>>>> Brahman and how ignorance leads to misunderstanding. He describes avidya as
>>>>> obscuring the true knowledge of Brahman but does not elaborate it as a
>>>>> positive ignorance.
>>>>> - **Avidya’s Nature**: In this commentary, avidya is addressed as the
>>>>> lack of true knowledge, rather than as a positive entity causing illusions.
>>>>>
>>>>> ### Summary
>>>>>
>>>>> In Shankaracharya’s commentaries on the **Brahma Sutras** and the
>>>>> **classic Upanishads**, **avidya** is primarily described in terms of its
>>>>> effects—such as leading to mistaken identity and the perception of
>>>>> duality—rather than as a substantive, positive force. The general approach
>>>>> in these texts is to emphasize the removal of ignorance through direct
>>>>> knowledge of the Self (Atman) and Brahman.
>>>>>
>>>>> #### **Key Points:**
>>>>> - **Absence of Positive Ignorance**: Shankaracharya does not typically
>>>>> define avidya as a positive, active force. Instead, he characterizes it
>>>>> more as a lack or veil over the true knowledge of Brahman.
>>>>> - **Focus on Knowledge**: The primary solution offered in
>>>>> Shankaracharya’s commentaries is to gain true knowledge (atma-jnana) to
>>>>> dispel avidya, which aligns with the idea that avidya is not a positive
>>>>> ignorance but rather a lack of understanding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus, **Shankaracharya’s position**, based on the commentaries on
>>>>> these texts, supports the interpretation of avidya as an absence of
>>>>> knowledge rather than as a positive ignorance. This interpretation aligns
>>>>> with the perspective of Swami Satchidanandendra Saraswati, who also
>>>>> emphasizes that avidya is best understood as the lack of true knowledge
>>>>> rather than an independently existing positive force.
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>