[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Asked of Chatgpt: "Are there any definitions or descriptions that depict a positive ignorance in Sankara's commentary on the Brahma Sutras or classic 10 Upanishads whether in context or otherwise?

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

Namaste Michael ji.

When exactly is this absence-of-knowledge.

Is this absence-of-knowledge identical with absence-of-iphone-in-my-home?

What do you mean by absence-of-x? How do you know absence-of-x?

Regards

On Wed, 3 Jul, 2024, 13:59 Michael Chandra Cohen, <
michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sudhanshu ji, here is Chatgpt on my query, " just consult suresvara's
> texts alone to determine his position on avidya as positive or otherwise "
>
> To determine Suresvara's position on avidya (ignorance) by consulting his
> texts alone, I'll summarize key points from his major works: the
> *Naiskarmya Siddhi*, the *Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika*, and the
> *Taittiriya Upanishad Vartika*.
>
> ### Naiskarmya Sid
> In the *Naiskarmya Siddhi*, Suresvara focuses on the nature of liberation
> (moksha) and the role of knowledge (jnana) in overcoming ignorance.
>
> **Key Points:**
> 1. **Nature of Avidya:**
>    - Suresvara consistently describes avidya as the root cause of bondage
> and suffering because it veils the true nature of the self (Atman/Brahman).
>    - Avidya is often characterized by a lack of discernment between the
> self and the non-self, leading to superimposition (adhyasa).
>
> 2. **Removal of Avidya:**
>    - Suresvara emphasizes that the removal of avidya is achieved through
> self-knowledge (jnana).
>    - He often refers to avidya in terms of ignorance or not-knowing,
> rather than a substantive, positive entity.
>
> **Relevant Verses:**
> - **Naiskarmya Siddhi 1.43:** "The cessation of ignorance is brought about
> by the realization of the true nature of the self, just as darkness is
> dispelled by light."
> - **Naiskarmya Siddhi 1.50:** "Knowledge alone destroys ignorance, just as
> the light of a lamp dispels darkness."
>
> ### Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika
>
> In the *Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika*, Suresvara elaborates on the
> teachings of the *Brhadaranyaka Upanishad* and Shankara's commentary.
>
> **Key Points:**
> 1. **Definition of Avidya:**
>    - Suresvara often defines avidya as the ignorance that causes the
> misidentification of the self with the non-self.
>    - He characterizes avidya as a lack of knowledge, which leads to the
> superimposition of the attributes of the non-self onto the self.
>
> 2. **Superimposition (Adhyasa):**
>    - Avidya is responsible for adhyasa, where the attributes of the body,
> mind, and world are falsely attributed to the self.
>    - The process of removing avidya involves the direct realization of the
> self's true nature.
>
> **Relevant Verses:**
> - **Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika 1.4.328:** "Avidya is the ignorance
> that misidentifies the self with the non-self. It is dispelled by the
> knowledge of the self."
> - **Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika 2.1.20:** "The self, veiled by
> ignorance, appears as the non-self. Knowledge reveals the self as it truly
> is."
>
> ### Taittiriya Upanishad Vartika
>
> In the *Taittiriya Upanishad Vartika*, Suresvara continues to expound on
> the nature of the self and the role of knowledge in overcoming ignorance.
>
> **Key Points:**
> 1. **Avidya as Lack of Knowledge:**
>    - Suresvara describes avidya as the fundamental ignorance of the self's
> true nature.
>    - He consistently emphasizes that avidya is an absence of true
> knowledge rather than a positive, substantive force.
>
> 2. **Role of Knowledge:**
>    - The realization of the self's true nature through knowledge is the
> primary means of dispelling avidya.
>    - Suresvara often uses metaphors of light and darkness to illustrate
> the relationship between knowledge and ignorance.
>
> **Relevant Verses:**
> - **Taittiriya Upanishad Vartika 1.6.1:** "Avidya, the ignorance of the
> self, is dispelled by the light of knowledge, just as darkness is dispelled
> by the rising sun."
> - **Taittiriya Upanishad Vartika 2.1.3:** "Knowledge of the self removes
> the veil of ignorance, revealing the self as pure consciousness."
>
> ### Conclusion
>
> Based on the examination of Suresvara's major works—the *Naiskarmya
> Siddhi*, the *Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika*, and the *Taittiriya
> Upanishad Vartika*—it is evident that Suresvara consistently views avidya
> as a lack of knowledge rather than a positive, substantive entity. His
> writings emphasize that avidya is the ignorance of the true nature of the
> self, and it is dispelled through the attainment of self-knowledge.
>
> Thus, Suresvara's position on avidya aligns with the traditional Advaita
> Vedanta view that ignorance is an absence of knowledge, which is removed by
> realizing the self's true nature.
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:24 AM Michael Chandra Cohen <
> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> yes, Chandramouli, I too questioned the term, 'veil' and Chatgpt answered
>> concerned Suresvara's take on ignorance and the use of the term though the
>> same applied to my earlier question of veil in Bhasyakara alone.
>>
>> The metaphor of ignorance as a "veil" can be interpreted in two different
>> ways, which depend on the broader philosophical context in which the
>> metaphor is used. Let's explore both interpretations, focusing on whether
>> it indicates a positive ignorance or a lack of knowledge.
>>
>> ### Ignorance as a Veil
>>
>> 1. **Veil as Lack of Knowledge:**
>>    - **Absence of True Knowledge:** In this interpretation, the "veil"
>> represents the absence of true knowledge. Just as a veil obstructs one's
>> vision, ignorance obstructs one's understanding of the true nature of the
>> self (Brahman). When the veil is removed, one sees clearly, implying that
>> when ignorance (lack of knowledge) is dispelled by knowledge, the true
>> nature of the self is revealed.
>>    - **Analogous to Darkness:** This view is analogous to darkness being
>> dispelled by light. Darkness itself is not a positive entity; it is simply
>> the absence of light. Similarly, ignorance is the absence of knowledge, and
>> when knowledge is gained, ignorance disappears.
>>
>> 2. **Veil as Positive Ignorance:**
>>    - **Substantive Obstruction:** In the positive ignorance
>> interpretation, the veil could be seen as a substantive obstruction that
>> actively hides the truth. This implies that ignorance is not just a passive
>> absence of knowledge but a positive presence that creates false perceptions
>> or superimpositions (adhyasa).
>>    - **Misleading Influence:** Here, the veil (ignorance) has a
>> misleading influence, causing one to perceive the non-self (anatman) as the
>> self (atman), and to see duality where there is actually non-duality.
>>
>> ### Context in Suresvara's Writings
>>
>> To determine which interpretation aligns with Suresvara's views, let's
>> consider his usage of the veil metaphor and his explicit statements about
>> avidya in his works.
>>
>> #### Evidence from Suresvara's Works
>>
>> 1. **Naiskarmya Siddhi:**
>>    - Suresvara often describes avidya in terms of a lack of discernment
>> and knowledge, emphasizing the removal of ignorance through
>> self-realization. For example, in *Naiskarmya Siddhi 1.43*: "The cessation
>> of ignorance is brought about by the realization of the true nature of the
>> self, just as darkness is dispelled by light."
>>    - This suggests that he views ignorance as an absence of knowledge,
>> akin to darkness being dispelled by light.
>>
>> 2. **Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika:**
>>    - Suresvara discusses the superimposition (adhyasa) caused by
>> ignorance but focuses on the correction of this false perception through
>> the acquisition of knowledge. In *Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika 1.4.328*,
>> he states: "Avidya is the ignorance that misidentifies the self with the
>> non-self. It is dispelled by the knowledge of the self."
>>    - Here, avidya is again presented as a lack of true knowledge,
>> corrected by gaining the right understanding.
>>
>> 3. **Taittiriya Upanishad Vartika:**
>>    - Suresvara uses the metaphor of light dispelling darkness to describe
>> the role of knowledge in removing ignorance. For example, in *Taittiriya
>> Upanishad Vartika 1.6.1*: "Avidya, the ignorance of the self, is dispelled
>> by the light of knowledge, just as darkness is dispelled by the rising sun."
>>    - This metaphor aligns with the interpretation of ignorance as a lack
>> of knowledge.
>>
>> ### Conclusion
>>
>> Based on Suresvara's writings and his consistent use of metaphors and
>> explanations, it is evident that:
>>
>> - **Ignorance as a Veil:** Suresvara's use of the veil metaphor indicates
>> a lack of knowledge rather than a positive ignorance. The veil obstructs
>> the true understanding, and its removal (through knowledge) reveals the
>> true nature of the self.
>> - **Lack of Knowledge:** Suresvara emphasizes that avidya is an absence
>> of true knowledge about the self, which is dispelled by gaining
>> self-knowledge. This is analogous to light dispelling darkness, where
>> darkness (ignorance) is simply the absence of light (knowledge).
>>
>> Therefore, Suresvara views ignorance as a lack of knowledge, and the
>> metaphor of a veil in his writings supports this interpretation.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:08 AM H S Chandramouli <
>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste.
>>>
>>> Reg  //  There are many others which can be interpreted to lead to the
>>> same conclusion. However I am not reproducing those statements //,
>>>
>>> I mean that there are many others which can be interpreted to lead to
>>> the conclusion that avidyA is a **positive entity**.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 1:32 PM H S Chandramouli <
>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Michael Ji,
>>>>
>>>> Copying below a few statements from your post which directly contradict
>>>> the conclusion. There are many others which can be interpreted to lead to
>>>> the same conclusion. However I am not reproducing those statements.
>>>>
>>>> //   **Non-Duality**: Shankaracharya emphasizes that Brahman is the
>>>> only reality and avidya is simply the veil over this truth  //.
>>>>
>>>> //   **Absence of Positive Ignorance**: Shankaracharya does not
>>>> typically define avidya as a positive, active force. Instead, he
>>>> characterizes it more as a lack or veil over the true knowledge of Brahman
>>>> //.
>>>>
>>>> Notice the use of the word **veil**. Is **veil** an existent or a
>>>> nonexistent? Those who present avidyA as a **positive entity** very often
>>>> use the same term, namely **veil** , to convey the meaning that avidyA is a
>>>> **positive entity**. I also follow the same.  How do you understand it?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> Virus-free.www.avast.com
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>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:16 AM Michael Chandra Cohen <
>>>> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Adi Shankaracharya's commentaries on the **Brahma Sutras** and the
>>>>> **classic Upanishads** are pivotal in understanding his view on **avidya**
>>>>> (ignorance). The notion of avidya as positive ignorance versus a mere
>>>>> absence of knowledge is a significant interpretative issue. To address your
>>>>> question, let's delve into the definitions and descriptions of avidya in
>>>>> Shankaracharya’s works, focusing on whether they depict avidya as a
>>>>> positive ignorance.
>>>>>
>>>>> ### Analysis of Avidya in Shankaracharya’s Commentaries
>>>>>
>>>>> #### **1. Brahma Sutras**
>>>>>
>>>>> **Brahma Sutras (Brahmasutras) Commentary:**
>>>>> - **Sutra 1.1.1**: The Brahma Sutras start with "Athato Brahma
>>>>> Jijnasa," which translates to "Now, therefore, the inquiry into Brahman."
>>>>> Shankaracharya’s commentary here emphasizes the need to understand Brahman,
>>>>> the ultimate reality, and addresses the role of avidya in obscuring this
>>>>> knowledge.
>>>>> - **Role of Avidya**: In his commentary, Shankaracharya typically
>>>>> describes avidya in terms of its effects, such as causing mistaken identity
>>>>> and suffering, rather than as a positive entity. For example, he describes
>>>>> avidya as leading to the false perception of duality but does not always
>>>>> characterize it as an active, positive force.
>>>>> - **Non-Duality**: Shankaracharya emphasizes that Brahman is the only
>>>>> reality and avidya is simply the veil over this truth. The focus is on
>>>>> dispelling ignorance through knowledge rather than combating an independent
>>>>> force of ignorance.
>>>>>
>>>>> #### **2. Classic Upanishads**
>>>>>
>>>>> **Chandogya Upanishad Commentary:**
>>>>> - **Chapter 6, Section 1**: Shankaracharya explains the concept of
>>>>> avidya as the cause of mistaken identity. He describes how individuals
>>>>> mistake themselves for the body and mind rather than recognizing their true
>>>>> nature as Brahman.
>>>>> - **Positive Ignorance**: Shankaracharya’s commentary here does not
>>>>> typically depict avidya as an active, positive force but rather as the
>>>>> absence of knowledge about the true nature of the Self. The focus is on
>>>>> removing this ignorance to reveal the ever-present reality of Brahman.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Mandukya Upanishad Commentary:**
>>>>> - **The Three States**: In his commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad,
>>>>> Shankaracharya discusses the states of consciousness (waking, dreaming, and
>>>>> deep sleep) and the ultimate reality (Turiya). He uses the concept of
>>>>> avidya to explain how the Self is obscured in these states but does not
>>>>> present avidya as an active force.
>>>>> - **Avidya’s Role**: Avidya is discussed as the source of ignorance
>>>>> about the Self’s true nature, leading to the mistaken perception of the
>>>>> world. Again, the treatment focuses on the lack of knowledge rather than an
>>>>> independent force.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Commentary:**
>>>>> - **Chapter 4, Section 3**: Shankaracharya discusses the nature of
>>>>> Brahman and how ignorance leads to misunderstanding. He describes avidya as
>>>>> obscuring the true knowledge of Brahman but does not elaborate it as a
>>>>> positive ignorance.
>>>>> - **Avidya’s Nature**: In this commentary, avidya is addressed as the
>>>>> lack of true knowledge, rather than as a positive entity causing illusions.
>>>>>
>>>>> ### Summary
>>>>>
>>>>> In Shankaracharya’s commentaries on the **Brahma Sutras** and the
>>>>> **classic Upanishads**, **avidya** is primarily described in terms of its
>>>>> effects—such as leading to mistaken identity and the perception of
>>>>> duality—rather than as a substantive, positive force. The general approach
>>>>> in these texts is to emphasize the removal of ignorance through direct
>>>>> knowledge of the Self (Atman) and Brahman.
>>>>>
>>>>> #### **Key Points:**
>>>>> - **Absence of Positive Ignorance**: Shankaracharya does not typically
>>>>> define avidya as a positive, active force. Instead, he characterizes it
>>>>> more as a lack or veil over the true knowledge of Brahman.
>>>>> - **Focus on Knowledge**: The primary solution offered in
>>>>> Shankaracharya’s commentaries is to gain true knowledge (atma-jnana) to
>>>>> dispel avidya, which aligns with the idea that avidya is not a positive
>>>>> ignorance but rather a lack of understanding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus, **Shankaracharya’s position**, based on the commentaries on
>>>>> these texts, supports the interpretation of avidya as an absence of
>>>>> knowledge rather than as a positive ignorance. This interpretation aligns
>>>>> with the perspective of Swami Satchidanandendra Saraswati, who also
>>>>> emphasizes that avidya is best understood as the lack of true knowledge
>>>>> rather than an independently existing positive force.
>>>>>
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>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>