[Advaita-l] [advaitin] SSSS on the controversy between mulav7idya and abhavarupa - directly and simply explained as per SSSS

[V Subrahmanian]

This statement of the Adhyasa Bhashya is pramANa for them to hold 'as per
Shankara, AdhyAsa is Avidya':

तमेतमेवंलक्षणमध्यासं पण्डिता अविद्येति मन्यन्ते । तद्विवेकेन च
वस्तुस्वरूपावधारणं विद्यामाहुः ।

regards
subbu

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:44 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Venkat ji,
> This is news to me. He doesn't accept a bhAvarupa ajnAna or bhAvarupA
> avidyA.
>
> So in his system, surely abhAvarUpa ajnAna = abhAvarUpA avidyA?
>
> Regards,
> Venkatraghavan QQ
>
> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 17:10 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>
>> Yes. Exactly. That is what I suspected. But preferred that you mention it
>> yourself. He does differentiate differentiate avidyA and ajnAna !!! That is
>> the whole issue we are talking about !!
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:32 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>> Yes, he has said adhyAsa originates from ajnAna. I shared the text a
>>> couple of mails ago, but here it is again -  न च अज्ञानं विना मिथ्याज्ञानं
>>> संशयज्ञानं वा समुपजायते.
>>>
>>> Don't tell me he differentiates avidyA and ajnAna!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 16:57 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>>
>>>> I have not read Hacker. Hence I did not comment directly on his
>>>> statement.
>>>>
>>>> Reg // Sri SSS is willing to admit that adhyAsa originates from avidyA
>>>> in the kleshApahAriNi //,
>>>>
>>>> Where exactly has he said this. Probably he has said adhyAsa originates
>>>> from ajnAna ?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:11 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>>> Doesn't Sri SSS admit that there is an avidyA that is the cause of
>>>>> adhyAsa in the kleshApahAriNi whereas he holds that avidyA and adhyAsa are
>>>>> identical in the mUlAvidyA nirAsah quote provided by Hacker? Is Hacker's
>>>>> understanding of Sri SSS' position wrong ?
>>>>>
>>>>> See below - in what sense did Sri SSS mean this:
>>>>> mitho viruddha svabhAvayor Atma anAtmanor yadanyonyatopAdAnam
>>>>> anyonyadharmavattvena Akalanam ca tad etad Atmavido vyavaharanti
>>>>> avidyeti.
>>>>> amum eva adhyAsam avidyeti manyante tattvacintakAh.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hacker says "Just as S, Subramanya identifies avidyA and adhyAsa".
>>>>>
>>>>> With respect to this:
>>>>> // Vedanta which predicates the unity of Brahman will be shattered to
>>>>> pieces, if a second entity not subjected to or originating from adhyAsa be
>>>>> for a moment conceded to exist //.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sri SSS is willing to admit that adhyAsa originates from avidyA in the
>>>>> kleshApahAriNi.
>>>>>
>>>>> If Sri SSS is willing to accept that there is no harm to advaita due
>>>>> to adhyAsa, why is there harm to advaita if there is an adhyasta avidyA -
>>>>> because that is what we are talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>> The avidyA we are talking of is adhyasta, so it is subject to adhyAsa.
>>>>> He himself concedes that adhyAsa originates from avidyA, which in our
>>>>> conception is adhyasta - so adhyAsa (of mind ego etc) does originate from
>>>>> adhyAsa of ignorance only. What is the problem?
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no second anadhyasta entity for him to worry about. Whether
>>>>> avidyA is abhAvarUpa or adhyasta, there is no harm to advaita.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 16:15 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don’t think Sri SSS takes any different position in KleshpahAriNi.
>>>>>> His objection is for considering avidyA as kAraNa for adhyAsa. His position
>>>>>> is that any bhAvarUpa avidyA, any such **positive** entity, as kAraNa for
>>>>>> adhyAsa takes it outside the purview of adhyAsa. And this is advaitahAni.
>>>>>> This is what is stated in the quote cited by Sudhanshu Ji
>>>>>>
>>>>>> // *Vedanta which predicates the unity of Brahman will be shattered
>>>>>> to pieces, if a second entity not subjected to or originating from adhyAsa
>>>>>> be for a moment conceded to exist //.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is his consistent refrain in VPP. He brings out that this
>>>>>> objection is valid in respect of practically all the commentaries like
>>>>>> PanchapAdika, VivaraNa, Ishta Siddhi, Bhamati etc. In an earlier private
>>>>>> discussion with an acknowledged authority on SSS works, who was very
>>>>>> closely associated with the KAryAlaya as well, I had pointed out that this
>>>>>> is practically his only objection highlighted in VPP against all the
>>>>>> commentaries, and that we could concentrate on resolving this issue. He had
>>>>>> discussed this with others as well and agreed with me that we could just
>>>>>> pursue this one issue further. Unfortunately the discussions could not be
>>>>>> taken beyond a certain point to a logical conclusion as it was felt that
>>>>>> face to face discussions were needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have tried several times to locate this in VPP, because the
>>>>>> original Sanskrit version needs to be cited for any meaningful debate. But
>>>>>> somehow it has been eluding me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel any headway is possible only if this one issue is resolved.
>>>>>> Other issues are really secondary to this.
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 9:36 AM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>>>>> Yes you are right. I had misunderstood Sri SSS' position.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sri Sudhanshu pointed me to the line in the kleshApahAriNi where Sri
>>>>>>> SSS
>>>>>>> says - न च अज्ञानं विना मिथ्याज्ञानं संशयज्ञानं वा समुपजायते, येन
>>>>>>> तदतिरेकेण
>>>>>>> मिथ्याज्ञानम् एव अज्ञानम् इति आग्रहः स्यात्।
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So he seems to agree that there is a mithyAjnAna different to ajnAna
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> without ajnAna, mithyAjnAna cannot rise - but, presumably, he does
>>>>>>> not wish
>>>>>>> to go on to say ajnAna is the material cause of such a mithyAjnAna.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, this position that there is an avidyA different to mithyA
>>>>>>> jnAna
>>>>>>> does appear to contradict his position from the mUlAvidyA nirAsah
>>>>>>> quoted by
>>>>>>> Hacker: -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mitho viruddha svyabhavayor Atma anatmanor yadanyonyatopAdAnam
>>>>>>> anyonyadharmavattvena Akalanam ca tad etad Atmavido vyavaharanti
>>>>>>> avidyeti.
>>>>>>> amum eva adhyAsam avidyeti manyante tattvacintakAh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hacker says "Just as S, Subramanya identifies avidyA and adhyAsa".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the kleshApahAriNi, he takes the opposite position.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>> Groups "advaitin" group.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>> send an email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdOPRX7LU098Dq0OE0v_Oz_3vZGLhAUcsmK0MM-hhNN%3D8g%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdOPRX7LU098Dq0OE0v_Oz_3vZGLhAUcsmK0MM-hhNN%3D8g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups "advaitin" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>> an email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aEm92RYfcWCL3sQaRQNnk6k4QjiZwyOcXPz4_VrPnLEBGQ%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aEm92RYfcWCL3sQaRQNnk6k4QjiZwyOcXPz4_VrPnLEBGQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "advaitin" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdO5h5u0xwfYM4-BLhRfxRkZ9NH3uaL_uBg7KSQWrcKkrQ%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdO5h5u0xwfYM4-BLhRfxRkZ9NH3uaL_uBg7KSQWrcKkrQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "advaitin" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aEkJH%3DB7DxfKGTkoyGpADituCzrboki4h%2BGx_pQhZYOxHg%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aEkJH%3DB7DxfKGTkoyGpADituCzrboki4h%2BGx_pQhZYOxHg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "advaitin" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdNVUap8HzCPLdDGFOxXFh5%3DqbTXe%2BUk4sR7Uy6cBxDqgw%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdNVUap8HzCPLdDGFOxXFh5%3DqbTXe%2BUk4sR7Uy6cBxDqgw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "advaitin" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aEkEhMCsQXm-X11KanPufEOb0hTAYYR5V2x-wRqhx6jGZw%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aEkEhMCsQXm-X11KanPufEOb0hTAYYR5V2x-wRqhx6jGZw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>