[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: Does the mukta/jnani see the world?

[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

PraNAms
A small correction - It should be
'The Guru-Sishya relation and Guru parampara all are valid with reference to the waking state. For the unrealized Jeevas, the world is real and SDV is valid. The Vedas, the Puranas, and Geeta all are real.

Hari Om!
Sadananda


 

    On Friday, November 17, 2023 at 08:58:45 AM GMT+5:30, 'Kuntimaddi Sadananda' via advaitin <advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:  
 
  
Bhaskarji - PraNAms

 

First, your arguments are verysound. 

I see a lot of discussions on Jnaaniwith DSV vs SDV arguments - and the classification of Jnaanis.

 

 

Here is my understanding. 

 

1. When you are in the deep sleepstate, there is no world, no other Jeevas, no Iswara, no space and time, also.You are beyond any apparent duality. Granted that you do not know your truenature also. Yet the fact is you are one without a second. From that reference,eka Jeeva Vaada (EJV) sounds correct. 

 

When you get up from the deep sleepstate, the mind gets unfolded and you have the waking world with Jeevas andJagat. In the dream state, the world and the Jeevas of the dream world are allcreated by your mind. Now what you call the dream world - DSV or SDV? - fromthe point of the waking mind that created the dream world - sounds like DSV.From the point of the you who is now a Jeeva in the dream world which is thereal world for you as a dream subject - it is SDV. Is it DSV or SDV - dependson from what reference the discussion is made. 

 

Now we can extend the same argumentsto the waking world. Which is correct DSV or SDV? It depends on the referencestate from which the discussion is made. 

 

Now look at the situation - when youget up from your dream -there is no more dream world, dream Jeevas. You are onewithout a second. You are now Jnaani with reference to the dream world. 

 

Now examine the waking state. In thiscase, for the realization of the truth, you can do so while being still in thewaking state. This you cannot do for the dream world since the discriminativeintellect (Viveka) needed for realization is not there when you are dreaming.The reason is if it is there you will not be able to dream. 

 

Hence from the point of waking state,a realized master with his body, mind, and intellect (BMI) understands usinghis Viveka that he is Brahman - one without a second. (you can call thatEJV). 

 

He with local BMI, transacting in theworld, now having understood the truth that he is Brahman, can see manyJeevas. 

 

His BMI will remain due to hispraarabda as well as due to the desires of the other Jeeves who want a teacher,who is a Jnaani. All our Advaitic masters come under this category. 

 

The Guru-Sishya relation and Guruparampara all are valid with reference to the waking state. For the unrealizedJeevas, the world is real and DSV is valid. The Vedas, the Puranas, and Gettaall are real. 

 

>From the realized Jnaani - from thepoint of truth, there are no Jeevas, no disciples, no world - He is Brahmanwithout a second. Yet from the point of the waking world, as long as his BMI isthere he plays his role (the world becomes a drama or jagannatakam).

 

Hence Shankara and Guruparampara areall valid from the point of the waking world since all these discussions aretaking place from that reference.

 

>From the point of realized state -there is only Brahman or paaramarthika view. 

 

Only confusion can happen about havingone step in the waking state and one step in the trureeyam. Which is valid SDVor DSV?

 

Such discussions, from myunderstanding (without offending anybody), will not be of much help in terms ofSelf-Realization. 

 

In essence, we need to keep in mindfrom what reference the discussion is relevant. 

 

My 2C.

 

Hari Om!

 

Sadananda


   
On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 12:00 AM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:

Any reference to jIvanmukti by Bhagvan Krishna or any of the AchAryAs such as MS Himself in 3.18 etc is to be understood in this manner only. As an arthavAda.

praNAms
Hare Krishna

After reading this I am getting some crazy doubts in my mind 😊 please bear with me.

(a)  Is shankara bhagavatpAda mukta (Jeevan mukta) or not??  It is only arthavAda and bhagavatpAda himself a mere object in DSV, how can I believe he is having any 'stuff' in his teaching??  After all 'he', his teaching etc. are just my imagination is it not??
(b) if the realization itself is arthavAda what is the role of sampradaya and sampradaya teaching??  And what is the need of Advaita sAdhana like shravaNAdi sAdhana??  When all these things are mere super imagination of this eka jeeva??  
(c) when this eka jeeva knows (intellectually) or realizes literally that he is one and everything else is his imagination, through which means (sAdhana) he would attain this knowledge and how he validates his knowledge and how he would determine his realization is genuine and not his mere stupid imagination??  
(d) And finally the author MS and his works (sankshepa shaareerika teeka, vedAntamuktAvali, AS, gUdArtha Deepika etc.) is just there in my ( the alone jeeva) imagination and I am drawing conclusions that in SDV ONLY jeevanmukta possible and DSV is just not accepting this etc.??  Don’t we get the doubt that in imagination we are just doing sub(upa) imagination??  😊  
( e) if sampradaya is a mute thing in EJV and jnAnOtpatti can happen on its own without any sAmpradAyik teaching or guru-shishya paraMpara, why on the earth advaita sampradaya giving undue importance to sampradaya??  OK, if we argue it is from the platform of SDV meant only for nAnA jeeva vAdins, then what is the route map for the EJ to realize that he is ekaM and there is no dviteeyaM when he considers everything apart from him is just his imagination and eulogy (arthavAda)??
(f)  And finally is this AS or any other works of MS just there to propagate Advaita siddhAnta, pratipAdana and sAdhana without caring much about sampradaya and sampradaya Acharya-s??  Are these works just an attempt of justifying Advaita and saving it from the objections of dvaitins??  This is my genuine query as I am not familiar with any of the works of MS as I have read Sri Vidya prabhuji's opinion in this list itself that Sri MS deviated from shankara's mUlabhAshya when presenting his prakriya.   And incidentally Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji also confirmed works like AS just polemics and not recommended or not required as a mandatory work in Advaita to study.  

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar

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