[Advaita-l] [advaitin] demonstrating aparokshanubhuti - WAS - 'Mithya' in Upanishads

[Vikram Jagannathan]

Namaskaram Shri Sreenivasa Murthy ji,

I respect your intent to close out this discussion. Not intending to
prolong, sharing a couple of comments before closing out.

I appreciate your underlying intent to realize the Truth before a person
advises others. I also really appreciate, and thank you, for quoting the
wonderful Sruti and Bhashyam statements that best indicate the Truth.

However, I see that you have declined to answer either of my specific
questions for twice now. Hence please allow me to share my opinion;
requesting your kind attention & understanding.

1. A jnani cannot 'reveal' their realization (aparokshanubhuti) in a manner
'understandable' by others. Hence kindly refrain from requesting others to
"reveal their aparokshanubhuti anubhava to you". No amount of guts /
intellectual honesty can ably demonstrate this to you.

2. You cannot prove that a person has not yet realized (by himself within
himself aparokshanubhuti of Atman-Brahman). Hence kindly refrain from
sharing directive references such as Shri J K ji's or giving presumptive
advices.

It again goes without saying that "I" and "my" here only refers to the
functioning antahkarana illumined by atman-brahman and stands juxtaposed
with "you" and "your". Respectfully seeking your forgiveness for any
transgression.

Harih Aum! Aum Tat Sat!

with humble prostrations,
Vikram


On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 7:18 PM sreenivasa murthy <narayana145 at yahoo.co.in>
wrote:

> Dear Sri Vikram Jagannathan,
>
> Sri Shankara uses the words "svasAkshikam ||", "svAnuBavagamyam||".
> Sruti says "svayaMjyOtiH".
> Sri Gaudapada says in Shloka 39 of chapter-2 of karikas thus:
> tattvaM adhyAtmikaM dRuShTvA tattvaM dRuShtVAtu bAhyataH |
> tattvIBUtadArAmastatvAdapracyutO BavEt ||
>
> In Shloka 33 of Chapter Advaita PrakaraNa Sri Gaudapada reveals :
> akalpakamajam jnAnam jnEyABinnaM pracakshatE |
> brahma jnEyaM ajam nityaM ajEnAjaM vibudhyatE ||
>
> One who quotes from texts to bring to the attention of the readers
> must and should have realized within himself by himself what has been
> revealed in the above teachings. He should have the guts and intellectual
> honesty to declare thus :
>      vEdAhamEtaM puruShaM mahAnta-
>           ntamAdityavarNam tamasaH parastAt |
>      tamEva viditvA atimRutyumEti
>            nAnyaH panthA vidyatE ayanAya||SvEtASvara ; 3-8.
> Sri J Krishnamurti in one of his writings he says:
>             Do not utter even a single word which you yourself
>             has not understood.
> Atman, your true nature, is apramEyam as revealed in Bhagavadgita and
> Bruhadaranyaka Upanishad.
> Kindly study mantras 2-1-3&2-1-4 of Kathopanishad and
> Mantra 2-4 of Kena Upanishad along with the Sri Shankara's commentaries
> to these mantras.
> Then the words what you have used become very clear to you.
> I pray to the Indwelling Reality to bless you with that Vision.
> With this I close.
>
> With respectful pranams,
> Sreenivasa Murthy.
> or realized.
>
>
>
>
> Mantra
>
> On Friday, 19 May, 2023 at 12:23:40 am IST, Vikram Jagannathan <
> vikkyjagan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Namaskaram Shri Sreenivasa Murthy ji,
>
> Sruti, indeed, says so.
> But your request was not for Sruti pramana; you had asked for anubhava
> pramana.
>
> Repeating myself; you requested "Based on your own anuBava I request you
> kindly to reveal this to me. Then only you quoting these Sruti mantras
> become fruitful to the reader."
>
> Either: 1. Please describe how to best reveal my atman-brahman
> aparokshanubhuti in a manner understandable by you.
> Or: 2. Kindly demonstrate or prove to me my lack of atman-brahman
> aparokshanubhuti, so that I can work towards this prior to quoting Sruti
> mantras.
>
> with humble prostrations,
> Vikram
>
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 10:08 PM sreenivasa murthy <
> narayana145 at yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>
> Dear Sri Vikram Jagannathan,
>
>  Sruthi uses the following words :
>       (1) Atmavit, mantravit || Chandogya
>       (2) Srotriyam, brahmaniShTham.|| Mundaka
>       (3) ananyaproktE gatratra nAsti || Katha .
>       (4) upadEkShyanti tE jnAnam jnAninaH tattvadarSiBiH || BhagavadgIta
>       (5) Mantra 4-4-8 of Bruhadarnyaka Upanishad states:
>                      aNuH panthA vitataH purANO
>                      mAgM spRuShTO^nuvittaH mayyaiva||
> (6)Sri Shankara , writes as an introduction to mantra 2-4
>     of Kena Upanishad thus :
>     EvaM acAryOktaH SiShyaH EkAntE upaviShTaH samAhitaH san
> yathOtamAcAryENa Agamam arthatO vicArya, tarkataSca nirdhAryasvAnuBavaM
> kRutvA AcAryasakASamupagamyOvAca manyE ahamathEdAnIM viditaM brahmEti ||
>
> (7) Mantra 6-8 of PrashnOpanishad reads thus :
>
> tE tamarcayantastvaM hi naH pita yO asmAkamavidyayAH paraM pAraM
> tArayasIti ||
>
> Now you must have realized in what spirit my posting has been written.
> You draw your own tight conclusions.
>
> With respectful pranams,
> Sreenivasa Murthy.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, 18 May, 2023 at 02:14:42 am IST, Vikram Jagannathan via
> Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>
> Namaskaram Shri Sreenivasa Murthy ji,
>
> I understand and appreciate your objective of calling out the fundamental
> tenet of Advaita - that it is only through anubhava. Advaita realization is
> neither a physical act nor mental dexterity nor intellectual sophistry.
> Ayam Atma Brahma is only aparokshanubhuti beyond space & time and thoughts
> & words.
>
> However, I am running into a problem with your request and seeking your
> guidance to resolve. You requested "Based on your own anuBava I request you
> kindly to reveal this to me. Then only you quoting these Sruti mantras
> become fruitful to the reader."
>
> Either: 1. Please describe how to best reveal my atman-brahman
> aparokshanubhuti in a manner understandable by you.
> Or: 2. Kindly demonstrate or prove to me my lack of atman-brahman
> aparokshanubhuti, so that I can work towards this prior to quoting Sruti
> mantras.
>
> It goes without saying that "I" and "my" here only refers to the
> functioning antahkarana illumined by atman-brahman and stands juxtaposed
> with "you" and "your".
>
> with humble prostrations,
> Vikram
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 9:00 AM 'sreenivasa murthy' via advaitin <
> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Sri Subramanian,
> > You Write :
> >
> > “Mandukya too has such references like Brahman  is prapanchopasham”.
> >
> > Mandukya also says : "sarvagaM hi Etad brahma ayamAtmA brahma"
> >
> > Mantra 7-25-1 of Chandogya says : ahamEvEdagM sarvam ||
> >
> > Mantra 7-25-2 of Chandogya says : AtmaivEdagaM sarvam ||
> >
> > Hence AtmA is ptapaMcOpaSamaH and I am prapaMcOpaSamah||
> >
> > Is the above conclusion a mere intellectual one or is it a fact of life
> > HERE &NOW?
> >
> > HOw can this be cognized as a fact of Life within oneself by oneself?
> >
> > Based on your own anuBava I request you kindly to reveal this to me. Then
> > only you quoting these Sruti mantras become fruitful to the reader.
> >
> > With respectful pranams,
> >
> > Sreenivasa Murthy.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, 17 May, 2023 at 06:40:07 pm IST, V Subrahmanian <
> > v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > You can look at the many references in the Upanishads for equivalent
> words
> > and expressions that unambiguously convey the idea of mithyatva.
> >
> > The Chandogya 6th chapter says the world as a transformation of Brahman
> is
> > not real. Mrittikeyyeva satyam..
> >
> > Apaagat agneragnitvam
> > ..
> >
> > Mandukya too has such references like Brahman  is prapanchopasham.
> >
> > Mayamaatram dvaitam Advaitam paramarthathah, etc.
> >
> > There are many.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 16 May 2023, 9:51 pm Krishna kapoor, <krishnakapoor571 at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > Namaskar everyone
> >
> > There is a very complex debate between Vaishnavas and Advaitins, where
> > Vaishnavas have been saying that Jagat is Satya and nowhere in Upanishads
> > it is written the Jagat is Mithya or unreal. It comes in Niralamba
> > Upanishad 'Brahma Satyam Jagat MithyA' but this is not one of the Mukhya
> > Upanishads.
> >
> > Please kindly tell where is term 'Mithya' in the Mukhya Upanishads?
> >
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