[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] rope has some problem in rope snake analogy :-)

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Namaste Venkataraghavan ji
I also noted what you wrote that the creation of a mAyika form
(vyAvahArika) which is subjectively experienced is a possibility.

I wanted to distinguish such a form from hallucinations etc. In these well
documented cases, "forms are seen outside without locii" (even if we take
this as a given...), yet as you said, as per vedAnta, the creation of the
object experienced is accepted even in schizophrenia etc. ( like the snake
is said to have been created by avidyA although here a locus of rope is
present).  But since there is subsequent bAdha of hallucinations, that
renders such forms bhrama jnAnam, unlike in the mAyika forms although both
are subjectively experienced. What set me thinking about jnAnAdhyAsa in
such cases is that there is no external locus like a rope. It's only the
past impressions and memories of the schizophrenic that present these forms
externally.

Thank you.
Om


On Fri, 29 Dec, 2023, 3:50 pm Raghav Kumar Dwivedula, <
raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Namaste ji
>> I misunderstood what you said. You were distinguishing between sopAdhika
>> bhrama and upAsya devatA case.
>>
>> Actually the question was of the apparent absence of locus in certain
>> experiences, which I was looking at in certain cases.
>>
>> The mAyika sharIra idea would sound more compelling if it were to be
>> available for common experience for others like in the case of avatAras
>> etc.
>>
>> Otherwise I see no particular problem in assuming the pratyaxa devatA
>> form as a yogaja pratyaxa. The experience remains a valid manifestation of
>> Ishvara and confers blessings and guidance etc even if it's not seen by
>> others. That's why I said the vRtti may occur and the form may be seen
>> 'outside' by not by others; so there need not be any physical object
>> corresponding to it else it would be experienced by others as well. In that
>> sense, this is like jnAnAdhyAsa, or so I thought.
>>
>> In the case of avatAras, the 'mAyika' sharIra is seen by all. So although
>> both experiences are valid vyAvahArika experiences, is not there a
>> difference between them?
>>
>> Om
>> Raghav
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 29 Dec, 2023, 11:55 am Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Raghav ji,
>>>
>>> This is not what I had in mind. To clarify what I wanted to say, in the
>>> case of the upAsya devatA mUrti appearing to the upAsaka, it is not jnAna
>>> alone in the absence of artha. Ishvara does take on the form of the upAsya
>>> devatA as a result of the upAsana phala. The perception actually takes
>>> place in this case, the artha is not physically present, so it must be
>>> admitted that an artha is created.
>>>
>>> As I had said, to the extent that there is perception involved and the
>>> object of perception is not present, one can assume the creation of the
>>> illusory object. The upAsya devatA's body is a mAyika sharIra created on
>>> the spot so that the upAsaka has the perception of his upAsya. There is a
>>> vision and the object of the vision.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023, 19:49 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes ji
>>>> The genuine case of upAsya devatA pratyaxa could possibly be classified
>>>> as
>>>> jnAnAdhyAsa without arthAdhyAsa. And we could argue that such
>>>> experiences
>>>> are not categorizable as purely sAxI pratyaxa like icchA, dveSha etc
>>>> because their (ie upAsya devatA's)  locus is perceived as being outside
>>>> oneself.
>>>>
>>>> Again these experiences of genuine devatA pratyaxa do not suffer bAdha
>>>> unlike schizophrenia etc which might produce similar experiences which
>>>> are
>>>> recognised as delusional, upon taking appropriate medicines.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the sopAdhika bhrama (like a crystal appearing yellow due to
>>>> the
>>>> flower kept next to it), it was pointed out by Venkataraghavan ji (in
>>>> agreement with Chandramouliji as per older discussion ) that it's an
>>>> example of jnAnAdhyAsa without arthAdhyAsa.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Om
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 28 Dec, 2023, 10:54 pm V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 7:42 PM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>>>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > Namaste Raghav ji,
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On Thu, 28 Dec 2023, 05:13 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
>>>> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > > visual or auditory hallucination (of the type that's
>>>> unconstitutional
>>>> > as
>>>> > > in
>>>> > > > schizophrenia a la "The Beautiful Mind" for example)?
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > I can't say for sure because I don't know how auditory
>>>> hallucination or
>>>> > > schizophrenia manifest, but to the extent that there is perception
>>>> > involved
>>>> > > (even illusory) and the object of perception is not present, one can
>>>> > assume
>>>> > > the creation of an illusory object.
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > Venkat ji,
>>>> >
>>>> > This prompts me to say that the situation where  a sagunopasaka
>>>> getting the
>>>> > upasya devata sakshatkara to be of this nature.  This is private to
>>>> him and
>>>> > also it disappears in time.  Of course there is no bAdhaka jnanam
>>>> here as
>>>> > this is not a case of atasmin tad buddhih. Yet the
>>>> darshanam/perception is
>>>> > had by him for a brief period. It is a result of his long practice of
>>>> the
>>>> > upasana where the samskaras generated by the upasana solidify and the
>>>> > devata appears before him.
>>>> >
>>>> > regards
>>>> > subbu
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Regards,
>>>> > > Venkatraghavan
>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>> > > Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>>> > >
>>>> > > To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>>> > > https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>> > >
>>>> > > For assistance, contact:
>>>> > > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>> > >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>>> >
>>>> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>>> > https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>> >
>>>> > For assistance, contact:
>>>> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>>> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>>
>>>> For assistance, contact:
>>>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>>
>>>