[Advaita-l] Fwd: [advaitin] Role of Viveka and Vairagya for Spiritual Maturity and Liberation

[V Subrahmanian]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Ram Chandran <ramvchandran at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: [advaitin] Role of Viveka and Vairagya for Spiritual Maturity
and Liberation
To: advaitin <advaitin at googlegroups.com>


More on Viveka, Vairagya, Waking, Dreaming, Deep-Sleep and Turiya States of
Mind

Namaste:

 The teachings of advaita vedAnta  identifies several qualifications
necessary for a student of self-knowledge to have. The first two are known
as viveka and vairAgya. viveka is often translated as discrimination, which
definition is further expanded to mean the ability to discriminate between
the real and the unreal.

 Though there are different types of Vairagya, our focus is only about the
Vairagya which is the detachment brought about by the ability to discern on
what is real and what is illusory. Vedantin labelled it as Viveka Vairagya.
Some scholars consider that Vairagya is born out of Viveka (knowing the
discrimination between Nitya and Anitya, Eternal or Transcendent and
transient, Sat and Asat, Tattwa and Atattwa, and Essence and non-essence.
Viveka emerges through selfless service done in several births and through
devotion and adoration of God, and through the Grace of the Lord or Self.
Vedanta says that the Vairagya brought about by Viveka is permanent and
fruitful to spiritual advancement.

 Any assertion such as Vairagya came out of Viveka or Viveka as the
cultivated fruit of planting Vairagya will imply that we know the path of
self-realization which is a contradiction.  We have recognized that it is
impossible to know whether seed came first or tree came first all that we
see both the trees and seeds!  We do not gain any visible gain with the
knowledge of which came first.   Instead, if we are better of just to
recognize that both are important for our salvation.

 We also had some discussion on the four states of consciousness – waking,
dreaming, deep-sleep and turiya. Details of Turiya are discussed in Verse 7
of the Mandukya Upanishad. The idea of Turiya is also found in Chapters 8.7
through 8.12 of Chandogya Upanishad where  the "four states of
consciousness" are stated as awake, dream-filled sleep, deep sleep, and
beyond deep sleep. Also Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, in chapter 5.14.3
discusses Turiya state, as does Maitri Upanishad in sections 6.19 and 7.11.
(Source Wikepedia)

 Here is the summary of description on Mandukya Upanishad  on Turiya:

“Not inwardly cognitive, nor outwardly cognitive, not both-wise cognitive,
not a cognition-mass, not cognitive, not non-cognitive, unseen, with which
there can be no dealing, ungraspable, having no distinctive
mark,non-thinkable, that cannot be designated, the essence of assurance,of
which is the state of being one with the Self

the cessation of development, tranquil, benign, without a second, such they
think is the fourth. He is the Self (Atman). He should be discerned.” —
Mandukya Upanishad 7  (Robert Ernest (1921), The Thirteen Principal
Upanishads, Oxford University Press, pp. 391–393)

Deep Sleep is also known as  Sushupti which means “deep sleep” and refers
to the third state of consciousness.  Essentially, it is a reference to the
dream less state of mind when the mind ceases both physical and mental
activities and totally absorbed internally. According to Mandukya
Upanishad, Sushupti is associated with prajna, the ultimate understanding
of the true nature of existence and reality.

 I am of the opinion that these descriptions and definitions are provided
to illustrate that it is impossible for us to recognize when or how long we
had the experience of Sushpti.  Brahman knows the Brahman is a tautological
statement – it is true and no will be able to dispute it and at the same
time, it doesn’t provide any help for our salvation.  Here is an example of
a tautological statement:  Post office is near the shopping mall and
shopping mall is near the post office.  This statement is undisputable but
not useful because it doesn’t tell us the location of either one!

 Regards,

Ram Chandran

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:35:45 AM UTC-4 balag... at gmail.com wrote:

> Hari Om
>
>
>
> >>>Athyanthika mOksha fetch us the knowledge that I was / is / will ever
> be ajaM,
>
>
>
> Very true Bhaskar Ji.
>
>
>
> Once the Mandukya Upanishad, it's karika and Bhashyam are thoroughly
> understood, then silence alone is possible. There is no way one can talk of
> bondage, lest even of moksha !  How the 'satkaarya vaadins' and the 'asat
> kaarya vaadins' are still debating, negating one another and automatically
> giving credence to 'aspaRsa yogo naama ajaathi vaada' !
>
>
>
> >>>Now the question is; jnana is going to completely eradicate the
> individuality of the jnAni without trace!! Is he going to be completely
> oblivious to his individuality after the dawn of nirvishesha, niravayava
> paramArtha brahma jnana??
>
>
>
> *Here's my 'mananam' on the above*:
>
>
>
> This is one among the false expectations like, moksham comes with an
> 'experience'! Most expect a groundbreaking change as one becomes a
> jnaani,like the disappearance of all duality, personality etc. Jnaanam is a
> paradigm shift happening in the intellect wrt to one's outlook towards -
> jiiva, jagat, and isvara. Having known the correct understanding, a jnaani
> may choose a lifestyle depending upon his preferences. Either remain in
> 'brahmabhaavam' with limited interactions in the world or plunge into the
> world for 'lokasamgraham'.  And most importantly, the praarabdham will
> continue with its work, whether a person is a jnaani or an ajnaani. The
> diff will be in responses and reactions the two make. A jnaani, having
> known the mithyattwam will respond accordingly. Even there are very rare
> instances of jnaanis taking up 'ajagara vrutti', remaining non responsive
> to even basic needs and remaining completely oblivious to his personality.
> Simply put - Jnaani has choices.
>
>
>
> That's why we see that, though the jnaanam of all jnaanis are the same,
> the way they live as a JM are varied. Tapovan Maharaj resorted to remain in
> Uttarakashi and Gangotri enjoying the Brahmabhavam ( anatma, because it's
> an experience), whereas his shishya, Swami Chinmayananda Ji roared down the
> Himalayas like the Ganges to irrigate the spiritually arid with the
> sweetness of the prasthanatrayam. Once you are free, you are FREE.
>
>
>
> All these wrong expectations happen due to improper learning of the
> scriptures.
>
>
>
> If one undertakes a sincere, systematic, consistent study of the
> prasthanatrayam from a Guru who is a 'shrotriyam brahmanishtam', then he
> will doubtlessly see the 'Arundhati nakshtra'.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Balagopal
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Sep, 2021, 15:21 Bhaskar YR, <bhask... at hitachi-powergrids.com>
> wrote:
>
>> praNAms
>>
>> Hare Krishna
>>
>>
>>
>> I have not received Sri rAmachandra prabhuji’s original mail but received
>> the reply from Sri Balagopal prabhuji!! My few thoughts on the reply :
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Ram Ji, for the highlights on Viveka and the vairaghyam born out
>> of it thus differentiating the 'smasaana' types of vairaghyam which we all
>> get once in a while in vyavaharams.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ø     Yes, smAshANa vairagya lasts very few days till that time we
>> started to entangle ourselves again in mAya.  ParamahaMsa gives an example
>> of sprinkling water on hot pan for this type of vairagya😊
>>
>>
>>
>> Can we say that the 'aathyanthika' moksham is when one has the
>> re-cognition, 'pRathyabhijna', from the study of the prasthanatrayi with a
>> sampRadayic Guru who also is a brahmanishta, that - 'Oh!  That's me', 'the
>> same one that had got into the creation' aka 'anupRavesam' of
>> 'Prasnopanishad' (?)and claim 'aham Brahmasmi' ? Like I remembered my old
>> classmate Devadutta when another friend Ram helped me out with it !
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    - Athyanthika mOksha fetch us the knowledge that I was / is / will
>>    ever be ajaM, nirvishesham, nirvikalpa brahman, anupravesham
>>    (tadevAnuprAvishat as explained in taittireeya) etc.  implies the reality
>>    of srushti that which is not acceptable according to some.  Interestingly,
>>    bhAshyakAra elsewhere says, prior to jnana, jnAni would think there is
>>    srushti etc. from Ishwara (or someone else) and after jnana he realizes
>>    that srushti, sthiti laya are from HIM only.  This is vikalpa rahita jnana,
>>    if the jnAni thinks in such a way as you explained above OH!! That’s me,
>>    who entered creation as jeeva at the time of creation etc.  then the jnAni
>>    who is expressing his thoughts must be personalizing his paramArtha
>>    nirvishesha jnana.   Again that is not palatable as per paramArtha
>>    adviteeya jnana.
>>
>>
>>
>>    - Now the question is; jnana is going to completely eradicate the
>>    individuality of the jnAni without trace!!  Is he going to be completely
>>    oblivious to his individuality after the dawn of nirvishesha, niravayava
>>    paramArtha brahma jnana??  I don’t think so, coz. bhAshyakAra says even
>>    after samyak jnana, paramArtha jnAni’s  senses would continue to operate
>>    normally.  Sri SSS says somewhere in Kannada :  paramArtha jnanavaaguva
>>    samayadalli haagu paramArtha jnanavaada melu paramAtha jnAnige naanu emba
>>    vaiyuktika prajne iddukonde eruttade aadare aa ahaM pratyayavu paripUrNa
>>    jnAnadinda baadhitavaagiruttade.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>>
>> bhaskar
>>
>> --
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "advaitin" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to advaitin+u... at googlegroups.com.
>>
> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/AM7PR06MB65813205CA43E889B2852B0EBFA99%40AM7PR06MB6581.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/AM7PR06MB65813205CA43E889B2852B0EBFA99%40AM7PR06MB6581.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> --
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"advaitin" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/82d0fe7b-d5ac-4153-a641-14108ee56e3dn%40googlegroups.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/82d0fe7b-d5ac-4153-a641-14108ee56e3dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
.