[Advaita-l] Perception in lightning

[V Subrahmanian]

On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 9:30 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hari Om V Subramanian ji,
>
> Yes. Gatva means elongation of chakshu and shrotra reaching the object.
> They don't leave the body and yet go to object by elongation.
>

When we admit the mind 'going' to the object, are we not admitting that the
body, for that time span, sans the mind?  Just like 'nirindiryatva aapatti'
is there not a 'nirmanastva aapatti'?

Sri Sastriji had also, upon my prompting, added that the chakshus is
tejodravyam and the shrotrendriyam is 'aakaasheeya dravyam'.

regards
subbu

>
> One clarification I want. Is sound and shabda the same. In my view, they
> cannot. Shabda is a guna of akasha. Shrotra has shabda as vishaya and not
> sound. In outer space, we cannot hear sound. But since akasha is there,
> theoretically shrotra can still cognize shabda.
>
> I think difference in shabda and sound AND rupa and light can solve the
> riddle.
>
> Regards
>
> On Tue, 11 May, 2021, 4:16 am V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Sudhamshu ji,
>>
>> Does elongation/dandaayamaana mean the same as चक्षुःश्रोत्रे तु स्वत एव
>> विषयदेशं गत्वा स्वस्वविषयं गृह्णीतः, श्रोत्रस्यापि if the VP? In other
>> words does elongation translate to 'gatvaa'? Is 'going' the same as as
>> elongation in this context?
>>
>> Regards
>> subbu
>>
>> On Mon, 10 May 2021, 7:03 pm Sudhanshu Shekhar, <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hari Om,
>>>
>>> // निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति//  whose objection is this, on whom//
>>>
>>> There is a tika on VP by Panchanan Shastri ji . There he writes -- स्वत
>>> एव स्वसामर्थ्यादेव स्वस्थानस्थिते एव  वा। तेन विषयसम्बन्धदशायां देहस्य न
>>> निरिन्द्रियत्वापत्तिरिति भाव:। Siddhant Bindu commentary also mentions it
>>> -- चक्षुरादीन्द्रियस्य  यथा जीवनदशायां न शरीरत्याग: .  Basically,
>>> chakshu and shrotra both elongate and span from body to vishaya the moment
>>> they face rupa and shabda. And then IF antahkaran rides over them and goes
>>> to vishaya, there is pratyaksha. Otherwise, though chakshu-vishay sanyog is
>>> there, there is no pratyaksha.
>>>
>>> If we presume that the दंडायमानत्व of chakshu and formation of
>>> mano-vritti is always together, as Chandramouli ji suggests, there will be
>>> no explanation of situation when see but do not cognise as Siddhant Bindu
>>> commentary suggests on page 103--
>>>
>>> मनोsसंयुक्तचक्षुर्विषयसंयोगे तादृश शक्तिविशेषास्वीकरेण .....
>>>
>>> So my understanding is -- (I may be wrong. If we can confirm it, it will
>>> be great). Whenever chakshu/shrota face respective vishaya, they
>>> immediately become dandaayamaan and touch both body and vishaya. If mind
>>> comes, rides over them and forms vritti, we get pratyaksha. If mind is
>>> असंयुक्त with chakshu/shrota and chakshu/shrotra has samyog with vishaya
>>> - then there will be no pratyaksha. It also explains Paribhasha drishtant
>>> -- there is a canal, and channel is already built connecting canal to
>>> field, water passes through channel and goes to field. Similarly, hole in
>>> canal = indriyagolak, channel = dandaayamaan chakshu, water = antahkaran..
>>> that is my understanding.
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 10 May 2021, 15:39 V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 1:15 PM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
>>>>>
>>>>> Reg  << Now once this दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति is formed and mind and
>>>>> shrotra are already there at vishaya desha, how will again it need to
>>>>> go
>>>>> there >>
>>>>>
>>>>> And
>>>>>
>>>>> << When there is indriya-vishay sanikarsha, the indriya does not leave
>>>>> it's
>>>>> place in body.. it stretches out till vishaya.. otherwise there will be
>>>>> निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति of body >>,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Vedanta Paribhasha:
>>>>
>>>> तत्र घटाद्यवच्छिन्नं चैतन्यं विषयचैतन्यम् , अन्तःकरणवृत्त्यवच्छिन्नं
>>>> चैतन्यं प्रमाणचैतन्यम् , अन्तःकरणावच्छिन्नं चैतन्यं प्रमातृचैतन्यम् ।
>>>>  तत्र यथा तडागोदकं छिद्रान्निर्गत्य कुल्यात्मना केदारान् प्रविश्य
>>>> तद्वदेव चतुष्कोणाद्याकारं भवति, तथा तैजसमन्तःकरणमपि चक्षुरादिद्वारा
>>>> निर्गत्य घटादिविषयदेशं गत्वा घटादिविषयाकारेण परिणमते । स एव परिणामो
>>>> वृत्तिरित्युच्यते ।    This, read with the following concluding part of the
>>>> Pratyaksha Pariccheda of the Vedanta Paribhasha:   चक्षुःश्रोत्रे तु स्वत
>>>> एव विषयदेशं गत्वा स्वस्वविषयं गृह्णीतः, श्रोत्रस्यापि चक्षुरादिवत्
>>>> परिच्छिन्नतया भेर्यादिदेशगमनसम्भवात् ।     gives us the idea: antaHkaraNam
>>>> going out 'through' the chakshurindriya means: the chakshurindriya too goes
>>>> out, along with the anathkaraNam to the vishayadesha to contact the
>>>> vishaya.
>>>>
>>>> // निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति//  whose objection is this, on whom?
>>>>
>>>> In Prashna and other Upanishads there is a story, only a story, where
>>>> each indirya will leave the body for one year and return to find that he
>>>> has been carrying on without that particular indriya.  This is just a
>>>> story, but yet the  निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति is there.
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>> subbu
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति is same as manOvritti issuing through the
>>>>> श्रोत्र
>>>>> indriya. It stretches out till the location of vishaya. However there
>>>>> is a
>>>>> continuous stream of such vrittis, each extending out the same way.
>>>>> Each
>>>>> vritti covers one cognition. Hence there is  continuity in the
>>>>> cognitions.
>>>>> Thus the condition considered by you
>>>>>
>>>>> << Considering that vishaya is same, vritti remains same. Mind+shrota
>>>>> of
>>>>> both a and b are in vishaya desha. Yet, at 10.05.01, a has no auditory
>>>>> perception but b will continue to have perception till 10.05.10 >>
>>>>>
>>>>> does not arise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reg  << It cannot be argued that every moment new vritti is created >>,
>>>>>
>>>>> As said above, continuous stream of vrittis is already in position.
>>>>> Each
>>>>> new cognition is by way of the succeeding vritti.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope I have clarified my understanding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Chandramouli
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 8:07 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>>>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > My understanding is as follows. Kindly correct Chandramouli ji.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > There is a दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति which spans from our body till
>>>>> vishay
>>>>> > desha. Riding on that the antahkaran forms antahkaran vritti from
>>>>> our body
>>>>> > till vishay desha. There owing to samyoga of shrotra and vishaya,
>>>>> mind
>>>>> > forms vsihayAkAra vritti.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Now once this दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति is formed and mind and
>>>>> shrotra are
>>>>> > already there at vishaya desha, how will again it need to go there.
>>>>> If due
>>>>> > to change in frequency, it is argued that new vishaya has come about
>>>>> > needing new vritti, then let us keep the frequency same and switch
>>>>> off the
>>>>> > source after 5 minutes.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Considering that vishaya is same, vritti remains same. Mind+shrota
>>>>> of both
>>>>> > a and b are in vishaya desha. Yet, at 10.05.01, a has no auditory
>>>>> > perception but b will continue to have perception till 10.05.10.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > It cannot be argued that every moment new vritti is created.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Regards
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
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