[Advaita-l] Sleep, tamas and brahman

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Kalyan ji,

I had the good fortune of revisiting these bhAShya portions yesterday
following your references. In fact, I read the whole brAhmaNa and bhAShya.

It appears to me that the purpose of the teaching here is to talk of the
nature of Atma - of it being self effulgent, one without a second, free
from misery etc, because such a knowledge is key to liberation.

To convey this understanding of the Atma to Janaka, Yajnavalkya takes him
through each of the three states in sequence. In each instance, the states
are used as experiential bases to understand the nature of Atma. Like any
good teacher, Yajnavalkya starts off with the things that the student has
personal experience of, and uses that to teach something about the Atma.

Looked at from this perspective, the nature of deep sleep, where one
experiences no duality, no misery, no ignorance is used to highlight not
the nature of deep sleep (for that is universally known)  but to point out
that that is in fact the nature of Atma.

If, however, you are convinced that this teaching is specifically about the
Atma in deep sleep, and not Atma per se, one has to consider what the
utility of such a teaching would be.

Ultimately, I am assuming that we are studying this so that one can be
liberated, and from that perspective, if your stand leads you to believe
you are already liberated (because you experience that freedom in deep
sleep and understand that to be your true nature), that would be a
fantastic outcome. There is nothing more to be done.

However, if that stand leads you to believe that one ought to permanently
experience the freedom of deep sleep in order to be liberated, that would
be a chimera, for the permanent freedom of the Atma is beyond experience -
ie the experience is not freedom, the experiencer is freedom.

Kind regards,
Venkatraghavan

On Tue, 1 May 2018, 07:55 Kalyan, <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sri Venkataraghavanji
>
> 4.3.32 is not the only place where ignorance is denied for the self in
> deep sleep. Below is more list of references where ignorance is completely
> denied for the self in deep sleep. My only suggestion is to read that
> entire section, though you may have already done so.
>
> [Shankara refers to 4.3.22 where the self in deep sleep is beyond the woes
> of the heart. It is pure like water, one and the witness 4.3.32. Self is
> unattached in deep sleep 4.3.18. It is beyond desires and free from evils
> and fearless 4.3.22. Self in deep sleep is free from all relative
> attributes and devoid of action and results 4.3.19. Self merges in nirguna
> brahman in deep sleep 4.3.21. In deep sleep there is no ignorance 4.3.21.
> Deep sleep self is free from grief 4.3.21.
>
> The form of self in deep sleep is free from ignorance , desire and work
> 4.3.22. In deep sleep father is no father, mother is no mother etc. In deep
> sleep, the Self becomes one with Atman or nirguna Brahman 4.3.23. Self is
> free from limiting adjuncts in deep sleep 4.3.30. Self is free from
> ignorance in deep sleep 4.3.32.
>
> Self in deep sleep is pure like water, it is the witness, and it is
> advaitam or non-dual, one without a second. 4.3.32. This is the highest
> state, the supreme bliss 4.3.32.]
>
>
> Regards
> Kalyan
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Tue, 5/1/18, Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Sleep, tamas and brahman
>  To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  Cc: "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>, "V Subrahmanian" <
> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>  Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 6:46 AM
>
>  Namaste,Nice
>  thread and references.One point from
>  Subbuji's post that drew my attention: in the BUB
>  4.3.32, Shankaracharya says:यत्र पुनः सा
>  अविद्या सुषुप्ते वस्त्वन्तरप्रत्युपस्थापिका
>  शान्ता, तेन
>  अन्यत्वेनअविद्याप्रविभक्तस्य
>  वस्तुनः अभावात्
>  The verbs used in the bhAShya above are
>  telling. In describing avidyA in deep sleep, Shankara
>  says सुषुप्ते अविद्या
>  *शान्ता* - that
>  is, in deep sleep, avidyA is pacified/ dormant, whereas the
>  objects that appear different from oneself are
>  absent  अन्यत्वेनअविद्याप्रविभक्तस्य
>  वस्तुनः *अभावात्*.If avidyA were absent, he
>  could have said so - so he acknowledges its presence, but
>  says that its power to manifest difference is temporarily
>  subdued.
>  Regards,Venkatraghavan
>
>  On 1 May
>  2018 6:55 a.m., "V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l"
>  <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  wrote:
>  On
>  Tue, May 1, 2018 at 10:12 AM, Kalyan <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>
>  wrote:
>
>
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >  //What Shankara means is 'in profound sleep
>  the
>
>  >  ignorance of the kind vikshepa, projection of
>  multiplicity,
>
>  >  is not there.  The basic ignorance of the type
>  aavarana,
>
>  >  enveloping, is definitely there.'  This has
>  been
>
>  >  clarified in that bhashya's commentary/gloss.
>  //
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  > Shankara himself does not say any such sort of a thing
>  that you say above.
>
>  > At many places in B U 4.3, Shankara admits no ignorance
>  in deep sleep. In
>
>  > 4.3.32, the Self in deep sleep state is mentioned as
>  the highest and
>
>  > advaitam. This cannot hold true if there is ignorance
>  in deep sleep.
>
>  >
>
>
>
>
>
>  In 4.3.32 itself Shankara begins his commentary by
>  proclaiming:    यत्र
>
>  पुनः सा अविद्या
>  सुषुप्ते
>  वस्त्वन्तरप्रत्युपस्थापिका
>  शान्ता, तेन अन्यत्वेन
>
>  अविद्याप्रविभक्तस्य
>  वस्तुनः अभावात् , तत्
>  केन कं पश्येत्
>  जिघ्रेत्
>
>  विजानीयाद्वा ।
>
>
>
>  // When, however, *that ignorance which presents things
>  other than the self
>
>  is at rest, in that state of profound sleep,* there being
>  nothing separated
>
>  from the self by ignorance, what should one see, smell, or
>  know,  and
>
>  through what? Therefore, being fully embraced by his own
>  self-luminous
>
>  Supreme Self, the Jiva becomes infinite, perfectly serene,
>  with all his
>
>  objects of desire attained, and the self the only object of
>  his. desire,
>
>  transparent like water, one, because there is no second : It
>  is ignorance
>
>  which separates a second entity, and that is at rest in the
>  state of
>
>  profound sleep ; hence 'one.'   //
>
>
>
>  It is clear that Shankara qualifies the ignorance as
>  'that which presents
>
>  things other than the self'.  So, only this aspect of
>  ignorance is at
>
>  rest.  Shankara nowhere says the aavarana ignorance is at
>  rest there.  One
>
>  can find the aavarana presence being admitted by Shankara in
>  the Mandukya
>
>  bhashyas. There in 1.11 Shankara says, on Gaudapada's
>  verse, that the jiva
>
>  is bound by both the causal ignorance and the
>  product-ignorance in the
>
>  waking and dream. In the deep sleep however, he is bound
>  only by the causal
>
>  ignorance. In 1.13 he further says that what is common to
>  both the deep
>
>  sleep and turiya is the non-cognition of dvaita, duality,
>  aka
>
>  product-avidya.  This is exactly what is meant in all the
>  BU instances
>
>  where Shankara has said or appears to have said 'there
>  is no ignorance in
>
>  deep sleep'. If this is understood, one will have no
>  room for seeing
>
>  dichotomy, etc.across the Upanishads / bhashyams.
>
>
>
>
>
>  Read introduction by Shankara to BU 4.4.7:
>
>
>
>  ‘अथाकामयमानः’ (बृ. उ. ४
>  । ४ । ६)
>
>  <
> http://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Brha?page=4&id=BR_C04_S04_V06&hl=%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%A5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%83
> >
>
>   इत्यारभ्य
>  *सुषुप्तदृष्टान्तस्य
>  दार्ष्टान्तिकभूतः
>  सर्वात्मभावो मोक्ष
>
>  उक्तः ।* मोक्षकारणं च
>  आत्मकामतया यत्
>  आप्तकामत्वमुक्तम् ,
>  तच्च सामर्थ्यात् *न
>
>  आत्मज्ञानमन्तरेण
>  आत्मकामतया
>  आप्तकामत्वमिति —
>  सामर्थ्यात्
>  ब्रह्मविद्यैव
>
>  मोक्षकारणमित्युक्तम्
>  ।* अतः यद्यपि कामो
>  मूलमित्युक्तम् ,
>  तथापि
>
>  मोक्षकारणविपर्ययेण
>  बन्धकारणम् अविद्या
>  इत्येतदपि उक्तमेव
>  भवति । अत्रापि
>
>  मोक्षः मोक्षसाधनं च
>  ब्राह्मणेनोक्तम् ;
>  तस्यैव दृढीकरणाय
>  मन्त्र उदाह्रियते
>
>  श्लोकशब्दवाच्यः —
>
>
>
>  Madhavananda:
>
>
>
>  // Then beginning with, ' But the man who does not
>  desire (never
>
>  transmigrates)' (Ibid.), *liberation consisting in the
>  identity with all,
>
>  which is the thing that was sought to be explained by the
>  example of the
>
>  state of profound sleep, has been described.* And the cause
>  of liberation
>
>  has been stated to be the attainment of all objects of
>  desire through their
>
>  becoming the Self. But since this state is unattainable
>  without
>
>  Self-knowledge, the cause of liberation has by implication
>  been stated to
>
>  be the knowledge
>
>  of Brahman. Therefore, although desire has been said to. be
>  the root of
>
>  bondage, it is ignorance that, being die opposite of what
>  leads to
>
>  liberation (knowledge),
>
>  has virtually been stated to be the cause of bondage. Here
>  also liberation
>
>  and its means have been dealt with by the Brahmana.//.
>
>
>
>  Shankara clearly says that deep sleep is an example for
>  liberation and not
>
>  identical with liberation.  It would be wrong to expect an
>  example and the
>
>  exemplified to be identical; Shankara has himself denounced
>  this view in
>
>  another Bhashya saying that 'if so, the relationship of
>  example-exemplified
>
>  itself is lost' and therefore it is sufficient if the
>  example has only a
>
>  few similarities with the exemplified.  And this is what is
>  the case in the
>
>  BU exposition. Also Shankara clearly says that
>  Self-knowledge is a must for
>
>  liberation / removal of ignorance and this is also clearly
>  stated in the
>
>  Upanishad. So, there is absolutely no room in the Upanishad
>  or the Bhashya
>
>  for the problems that you think are present.
>
>
>
>  regards
>
>  _______________________________________________
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