[Advaita-l] Question about Avaccheda vada

[Aditya Kumar]

Thanks for that clarification. I don't want to harp on this further as I understand that you are quite sensitive towards this. But my parting shot is this - adav ante cha yennAsti vartamAnepi tatathA. By this logic, ishwara cannot be considered as creator even provisionally otherwise there will be no apavada just adhyaropa. Hence also Shankara uses ishwara and brahman interchangeably. 
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 10/2/18, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Question about Avaccheda vada
 To: "Aditya Kumar" <kumaraditya22 at yahoo.com>
 Cc: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>, "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
 Date: Saturday, 10 February, 2018, 3:15 AM
 
 
 
 2018-02-10 8:36 GMT+05:30
 Aditya Kumar <kumaraditya22 at yahoo.com>:
 Thanks for the relevant passages.
 This actually is very good. I had specifically mentioned
 reflection theory "as we understand today".
 
 Even the
 theory 'as understood today', whatever that might
 mean, does not contradict Advaita. Ishwara is Brahman
 reflected in maya and jiva is Brahman reflected in avidya.
 This can happily explain advaita.  Only the reflecting
 mediums are different.  If you want water example, you can
 have different types/magnitudes of water bodies for the
 reflection and use the theory.
 vs In both
 cases, the jala surya example is not the same as reflection
 theory that is now understood. Even in this example of
 reflection of sun in water, what or where is ishwara? There
 is just jiva brahman and their aikya.
 
 ------------------------------ --------------
 
 On Sat, 10/2/18, V Subrahmanian
 <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
 wrote:
 
 
 
  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Question about Avaccheda vada
 
  To: "Aditya Kumar" <kumaraditya22 at yahoo.com>
 
  Cc: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
 <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
 vedanta.org>, "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
 
  Date: Saturday, 10 February, 2018, 2:48 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  On Sat,
 
  Feb 10, 2018 at 7:58 AM, Aditya Kumar <kumaraditya22 at yahoo.com>
 
  wrote:
 
  Namaste,
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  If we try to remain faithful to Shankara bhashyas, a lot
 of
 
  concepts seem alien to early Advaita Vedanta
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  (1) The fact is that Avaccheda vada is the most
 preferred
 
  theory endorsed by Gaudapada Shankara and Vachaspati.
 The
 
  reflection theory cannot be found in original bhashyas
 
  "as we understand today".
 
  There are several instances of
 
  reflection analogy used by Shankara. One is:  BGB
 
  15.7:
 
 
 
 
 
  ममैवांशो जीवलोके
 
  जीवभूतः
 
  सनातनः । 
 
  मनःषष्ठानीन्द्रियाणि
 
  प्रकृतिस्थानि
 कर्षति
 
  ॥ ७ ॥ भाष्यम्ममैव
 
  परमात्मनः
 नारायणस्य,
 
  अंशः भागः अवयवः
 एकदेशः
 
  इति अनर्थान्तरं
 
  जिवलोके जीवानां
 लोके
 
  संसारे जीवभूतः
 कर्ता
 
  भोक्ता इति
 प्रसिद्धः
 
  सनातनः चिरन्तनः ; यथा
 
  जलसूर्यकः सूर्यांशः
 
  जलनिमित्तापाये
 
  सूर्यमेव गत्वा न
 
  निवर्तते च तेनैव
 
  आत्मना गच्छति, एवमेव
 ;
 
  यथा
 
  घटाद्युपाधिपरिच्छिन्नो
 
  घटाद्याकाशः
 आकाशांशः
 
  सन्
 
  घटादिनिमित्तापाये
 
  आकाशं प्राप्य न
 
  निवर्तते । अतः
 
  उपपन्नम्
 
  उक्तम् ‘यद्गत्वा
 
  न निवर्तन्ते’ (भ. गी.
 
  १५ ।
 
  ६) इति ।
 
 
 
  Here, in one place, Shankara gives both the pratibimba
 and
 
  avaccheda examples to convey the same point.
 
 
 
 
 
  ब्रह्मसूत्रभाष्यम्द्वितीयोऽध्
 यायःतृतीयः
 
  पादः सूत्रम् ५० -
 
  भाष्यम्………
 
  आभास एव च एष जीवः
 
  परस्यात्मनो
 जलसूर्यकादिवत्प्रतिपत्तव्यः,
 
  न स एव साक्षात् , नापि
 
  वस्त्वन्तरम् ।
 
  अतश्च………
 
  BSB
 
  3.2..
 
 
 
 
 
  अत एव
 
  चोपमा सूर्यकादिवत् ॥
 
  १८ ॥ भाष्यम्यत एव च
 
  अयमात्मा चैतन्यरूपो
 
  निर्विशेषो
 
  वाङ्मनसातीतः
 
  परप्रतिषेधोपदेश्यः,
 
  अत एव च
 
  अस्योपाधिनिमित्तामपारमार्थिकीं
 
  विशेषवत्तामभिप्रेत्य
 
  जलसूर्यकादिवदित्युपमा
 
  उपादीयते
 
  मोक्षशास्त्रेषु —
 
  ‘यथा ह्ययं
 
  ज्योतिरात्मा
 
  विवस्वानपो भिन्ना
 
  बहुधैकोऽनुगच्छन् ।
 
  उपाधिना क्रियते
 
  भेदरूपो देवः
 
  क्षेत्रेष्वेवमजोऽयमात्मा’
 
  इति, ‘एक एव हि
 भूतात्मा
 
  भूते भूते
 
  व्यवस्थितः । एकधा
 
  बहुधा चैव दृश्यते
 
  जलचन्द्रवत्’ (ब्र.
 बिं.
 
  १२) इति चैवमादिषु ॥
 १८
 
  ॥
 
 
 
  In fact the reflection theory comes out as a favourite
 of
 
  Shankara very often. The Upanishads too give this
 analogy
 
  often. See the Kathopanishat.
 
   
 
  Nonetheless confining to the topic,
 
  if we have explain Jiva ishwara and brahman from
 Avaccheda
 
  theory, we have few pointers :
 
 
 
  (a) The idea that ishwara is another ghata or
 mathakasha
 
  cannot be found in the original works of Gaudapada,
 Shankara
 
  and Vachaspati Misra.
 
 
 
  If it is explicitly stated by
 
  someone, there is nothing wrong in having it as the
 very
 
  idea of Ishwara as non-jiva and non-NB is quite happily
 
  admitted by all Acharyas of all times.
 
  vs
 
    
 
  (b) When we speak of Ishwara as the creator, the
 creatorship
 
  is imagined or superimposed or mistaken or as
 Subrahmanianji
 
  said, adhyaropa done by shastras. In any case, the
 delusion
 
  is that of jiva and Ishwara remains the same throughout
 as
 
  akarta, samsara guna vargita.
 
 
 
  (c) That Ishwara the creator has sattva guna as
 predominant
 
  - this idea cannot be found in prasthana traya bhashya.
 As
 
  indicated in another thread, Ishwara is without any
 guna
 
  vishesha or guna sambandha. Else it will be a samsari.
 
 
 
  (d) The idea that a predominant sattva guna does not
 veil
 
  the self is another concept alien to SD itself.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  Hence my understanding is that, by the potency of
 Ishwara,
 
  the true nature of Jiva is veiled. In this state there
 is
 
  jiva-ishwara, but on release there is no jiva-ishwara
 only
 
  brahman. So at no point does Ishwara sets out to create
 and
 
  hence justifiably there cannot be any guna karma
 association
 
  for ishwara whether in vyavaharika or paramarthika.