[Advaita-l] Question/Clarification on Chanting Vaidika mantras

[D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ]

Here we are hairsplitting about the conditions under which vedic mantras
can be chanted.
At Siddhi Vinayaka Cultural Center in Fremont, California, USA an Atirudra
yagam has benn performed
from October 26 to November 5. The fly paper says that it was performed
with blessings of Srigeri and Kanchi Acharyas.

regards,
Sarma.

2017-11-06 12:23 GMT+05:30 D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ <dvnsarma at gmail.com>:

> It seems that an atirudra yaga has been performed in Freemont, California,
> USA.
>
> regards,
> Sarma.
>
> 2017-11-06 8:08 GMT+05:30 V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:34 AM, Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan via
>> Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> > The meanings can be changed even by non-svara mistakes such as dadAti
>> vs.
>> > dadhAti etc. Yes, there could be many examples, but the question is
>> whether
>> > there is a problem if the meaning does not change. This is in the case
>> when
>> > the svara is not said, but could match up to classical Sanskrit and make
>> > the same sense. However, since the veda-s are aparuSheya, it's not a
>> > sensible question to ask whether the vedic passage would make the same
>> > sense when the svara was not recited, given that classical Sanskrit does
>> > not have svara-s. The lack of svara-s/wrong svara-s makes it NOT the
>> veda
>> > and cannot give the requisite result, since the svaras are aparuSheya as
>> > well. In some cases, it could convey the opposite meaning, but even if
>> does
>> > not, it cannot bear the same fruit.
>> >
>> > Any chanting not associated with particular results would come under the
>> > directive svAdhyAyo adhyetavyaH, which is a nitya karma. As I explained
>> > previously, as per advaita there is no apUrva.
>> >
>>
>> Advaita does not accept apūrva as a substitute for Īśvara. But the concept
>> of 'adṛṣtam' is well accepted:
>>
>>  स्मार्तश्च देवयज्ञादिः, स्वाध्यायः ऋग्वेदाद्यध्ययनम् अदृष्टार्थम् ।
>> [BGB 16.1]  The svādhyāya will generate adṛṣṭa phala. This could happen in
>> this life or any future life.
>>
>> सर्वकर्माणि दृष्टादृष्टार्थानि मयि ईश्वरे संन्यस्य     [BGB 18.57]
>>
>> शोभनचरितानि आम्नायाद्यविरुद्धानि, तान्येव त्वया उपास्यानि
>> अदृष्टार्थान्यनुष्ठेयानि
>>   [Tai.Up.Bh.1.4] One should emulate the acts of the Acharya that are
>> non-contradictory to Veda, etc. that produce adrshta phala.  In other
>> words, the karma done now will remain in a certain form till it produces
>> tangible result. This intangible form in which it remains is called
>> adrshta.
>>
>> फलमत उपपत्तेः ॥ ३८ ॥
>>  भाष्यम्
>> <http://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/BS?page=
>> 3&id=BS_C03_S02_V38_B1&hlBhashya=%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%A8%
>> E0%A4%AF#bhashya-BS_C03_S02_V38>
>>  जनय
>> तस्यैव ब्रह्मणो व्यावहारिक्याम् ईशित्रीशितव्यविभागावस्थायाम् , अयमन्यः
>> स्वभावो वर्ण्यते । यदेतत् इष्टानिष्टव्यामिश्रलक्षणं कर्मफलं संसारगोचरं
>> त्रिविधं प्रसिद्धं जन्तूनाम् , किमेतत् कर्मणो भवति, आहोस्विदीश्वरादिति
>> भवति
>> विचारणा । तत्र तावत्प्रतिपाद्यते — फलम् अतः ईश्वरात् भवितुमर्हति । कुतः ?
>> उपपत्तेः ; स हि सर्वाध्यक्षः सृष्टिस्थितिसंहारान् विचित्रान् विदधत्
>> देशकालविशेषाभिज्ञत्वात् कर्मिणां कर्मानुरूपं फलं सम्पादयतीत्युपपद्यते ;
>> कर्मणस्तु अनुक्षणविनाशिनः कालान्तरभावि फलं भवतीत्यनुपपन्नम् ,
>> अभावाद्भावानुत्पत्तेः । स्यादेतत् — कर्म विनश्यत् स्वकालमेव स्वानुरूपं फलं
>> जनयित्वा विनश्यति, तत्फलं कालान्तरितं कर्त्रा भोक्ष्यत इति ; तदपि न
>> परिशुध्यति, प्राग्भोक्तृसम्बन्धात् फलत्वानुपपत्तेः — यत्कालं हि यत् सुखं
>> दुःखं वा आत्मना भुज्यते, तस्यैव लोके फलत्वं प्रसिद्धम् ; न हि
>> असम्बद्धस्यात्मना सुखस्य दुःखस्य वा फलत्वं प्रतियन्ति लौकिकाः । अथोच्येत —
>> मा भूत्कर्मानन्तरं फलोत्पादः, कर्मकार्यादपूर्वात्फलमुत्पत्स्यत इति, तदपि
>> नोपपद्यते, अपूर्वस्याचेतनस्य काष्ठलोष्टसमस्य चेतनेनाप्रवर्तितस्य
>> प्रवृत्त्यनुपपत्तेः, तदस्तित्वे च प्रमाणाभावात् । अर्थापत्तिः प्रमाणमिति
>> चेत् , न, ईश्वरसिद्धेरर्थापत्तिक्षयात् ॥ ३८ ॥
>>  In the above sutra bhashya, Shankara denies the idea of apūrva as a
>> substitute for Ishwara as phaladātā.  The idea of adrshtam is admissible
>> in
>> Advaita. This is reasonable since it is seen that the karma done now does
>> not always produce the effect immediately.
>> *In the Kenopanishat bhashyam 3.12 too there is a discussion on this
>> topic:*
>>
>>  सति कर्मणः फलहेतुत्वे किमीश्वराधिककल्पनयेति न नित्यस्येश्वरस्य
>> नित्यसर्वज्ञशक्तेः फलहेतुत्वं चेति चेत् , न ; कर्मण
>> एवोपभोगवैचित्र्याद्युपपद्यते । कस्मात् ? कर्तृतन्त्रत्वात्कर्मणः ।
>> चितिमत्प्रयत्ननिर्वृत्तं हि कर्म तत्प्रयत्नोपरमादुपरतं सद्देशान्तरे
>> कालान्तरे वा नियतनिमित्तविशेषापेक्षं कर्तुः फलं जनयिष्यतीति न
>> युक्तमनपेक्ष्यान्यदात्मनः प्रयोक्तृ, कर्तैव फलकाले प्रयोक्तेति चेत् , मया
>> निवर्तितोऽसि त्वां प्रयोक्ष्ये फलाय यदात्मानुरूपं फलमिति न
>> देशकालनिमित्तविशेषानभिज्ञत्वात् । यदि हि कर्ता देशादिविशेषाभिज्ञः
>> सन्स्वातन्त्र्येण कर्म नियुञ्ज्यात् , ततोऽनिष्टफलस्याप्रयोक्ता स्यात् । न
>> च
>> निर्निमित्तं तदनिच्छयात्मसमवेतं तच्चर्मवद्विकरोति कर्म । न
>> चात्मकृतमकर्तृसमवेतमयस्कान्तमणिवदाक्रष्टृ भवति,
>> प्रधानकर्तृसमवेतत्वात्कर्मणः । भूताश्रयमिति चेत् , न ; साधनत्वात् ।
>> कर्तृक्रियायाः साधनभूतानि भूतानि क्रियाकालेऽनुभूतव्यापाराणि समाप्तौ च
>> हलादिवत्कर्त्रा परित्यक्तानि न फलं कालान्तरे कर्तुमुत्सहन्ते । न हि हलं
>> क्षेत्राद्व्रीहीन्गृहं प्रवेशयति । भूतकर्मणोश्चाचेतनत्वात्स्वतः
>> प्रवृत्त्यनुपपत्तिः । वायुवदिति चेत् , न ; असिद्धत्वात् । न हि
>> वायोरचितिमतः
>> स्वतः प्रवृत्तिः सिद्धा, रथादिष्वदर्शनात् । शास्त्रात्कर्मण एवेति चेत् —
>> शास्त्रं हि क्रियातः फलसिद्धिमाह नेश्वरादेः ‘स्वर्गकामो यजेत’ इत्यादि । न
>> च
>> प्रमाणाधिगतत्वादानर्थक्यं युक्तम् । न चेश्वरास्तित्वे प्रमाणान्तरमस्तीति
>> चेत् , न ; दृष्टन्यायहानानुपपत्तेः । क्रिया हि द्विविधा दृष्टफला अदृष्टफला
>> च । दृष्टफलापि द्विविधा अनन्तरफला कालान्तरफला च । अनन्तरफला गतिभुजिलक्षणा
>> ।
>> कालान्तरफला च कृषिसेवादिलक्षणा । तत्रानन्तरफला फलापवर्गिण्येव ।
>> कालान्तरफला
>> तु उत्पन्नप्रध्वंसिनी । आत्मसेव्याद्यधीनं हि कृषिसेवादेः फलं यतः । न
>> चोभयन्यायव्यतिरेकेण स्वतन्त्रं कर्म ततो वा फलं दृष्टम् । तथा च
>> कर्मफलप्राप्तौ न दृष्टन्यायहानमुपपद्यते । तस्माच्छान्ते यागादिकर्मणि
>> नित्यः
>> कर्तृकर्मफलविभागज्ञ ईश्वरः सेव्यादिवद्यागाद्यनुरूपफलदातोपपद्यते । स
>> चात्मभूतः सर्वस्य सर्वक्रियाफलप्रत्ययसाक्षी नित्यविज्ञानस्वभावः
>> संसारधर्मैरसंस्पृष्टः
>>
>> *Here too, the adrshta, that operates in the condition where Ishwara is
>> accepted, is admitted by the bhashyakāra and not in the absence of
>> Ishwara.*
>>
>> *regards*
>> *subbu*
>>
>> >
>> > In rituals/karma-s there are a number of prAyashcitta karma-s meant for
>> > expiation. As far as svAdhyAya goes, there isn't any, but the right
>> effort
>> > has to be made. Most people barely make any effort to learn the right
>> > svara-s. If the right effort is made and it's not for a specific
>> purpose,
>> > samarpaNam to nArAyaNa should be good enough. But the key is to actually
>> > make the proper effort. That's my understanding.
>> >
>> > I am not aware of yati-dharma-s. It's not prohibited for them from
>> chanting
>> > veda-s, though it's not an obligatory ritual for them.
>> >
>> > Rama
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Namaste Rama ji
>> > >  Thank you for your inputs. You have researched this topic deeply and
>> I
>> > am
>> > > taking the liberty of asking a few doubts on chanting.
>> > >
>> > > Regarding meaning being changed by change in svara - I have a doubt.
>> Are
>> > > there other examples other than the stock example of
>> > indrashatrurvardhate?
>> > >
>> > > I remember being told that the above indrashatru logic is extendable
>> to
>> > > other cases of a word being interpreted either as a bahuvrIhi or
>> > tatpuruSha
>> > > based on accents. Based on pANinIya shikShA? But don't recollect the
>> > > details.
>> > >
>> > > Also are there any details in shikShA about what other places a svara
>> > > change effects a meaning change?
>> > >
>> > > And the other side of the question - and I can see that this is
>> slippery
>> > > slope so will not press the point- where the svara change does not
>> > effect a
>> > > meaning change (are there any rules to assert this ?)- what are we to
>> > make
>> > > of such (unchaste) chanting. Will it still be efficacious ?
>> > >
>> > > One last question - its a common practice (I do so quite often) to
>> chant
>> > a
>> > > few assorted suktas after the morning sandhya . Such chanting has
>> > > discernible dRShTa phala in the form of cittanaiscalyam. My question
>> is
>> > -
>> > > since there is no particular vidhi from a brAhmaNa being followed in
>> such
>> > > chanting (afaik), is there any adRShTa at all which accrues from such
>> > > chanting after sandhya or on some other occasions like say on a visit
>> to
>> > a
>> > > temple?
>> > >
>> > > One last question - if a mistake occurs while chanting a line from a
>> > sUkta,
>> > > can it be corrected by 're-chanting' that particular line or phrase
>> or is
>> > > the chanting thereby irretrievably blemished.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Om
>> > > Raghav
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>> >
>> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
>> > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>> >
>> > For assistance, contact:
>> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>>
>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>
>> For assistance, contact:
>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>
>
>