[Advaita-l] A question on PariNAma and vivarta

[H S Chandramouli]

Sri Krishnamurthy Ji,

The issue I think is not about an ab initio discussion of mud/gold being
modified into pot/ornament etc. It is about what Sri Vidyaranya Swami meant
in verse 8 and verse 49 of Panchadashi 13th chapter which appear to be
contradictory to each other.

Regards

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 5:34 PM, R Krishnamoorthy via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Dears
> Quite interesting discussion. Parinama is used for the irreversible change
> of the inert matter as time passes by even without an lnterference by an
> intelligent agent. Vivartha is an induced change by an intelligent agent.
> This change is reversible and modifiable with certain qualifications. Gold
> ornaments can be melted to gold but pot after its baking can not become
> clay. I think this aspect is the cause for this discussion.
> R. Krishnamoorthy.
> On 8 Feb 2017 16:17, "Praveen R. Bhat via Advaita-l" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Namaste Sadaji,
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 1:38 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
> > kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I feel everyone missed -  the relevance of question, in relation to the
> > > Ch. 13 of Panchadashi - entitled brahmanande aatmananda.
> > >
> > Perhaps a typo, you meant advaitAnanda.
> >
> > I think now I missing the point you're trying to make. Its surprising to
> > see that you are pointing out everyone is missing your question after 40
> > odd mails on the thread! Let me restate the problems raised by you, at
> > least that is what I understood and replied earlier. Panchadashikara
> > quotes:
> >
> > 1)  "मृत्कुम्भ and सुवर्णकुण्डल as examples for परिणाम्युपादान instead of
> > विवर्तोपादान.
> > 2) रज्जुसर्प as विवर्तोपादान which is प्रातिभासिक।
> >
> > On the 2nd point, you wondered if there is any Upanishad that covers it
> and
> > I named a few. On the 1st point, I will try to see it in the context of
> the
> > chapter that you are specifically showing it to be out of place
> perhaps...
> >
> >  ...
> >
> > >
> > > I am fully aware of the parinmana and vivara  aspects - we are not
> > > discussing here the general definitions but specifics in relation to
> the
> > > title of the chapter
> > >
> > The example is very much in the context of the chapter, but I understood
> > that you made a very generic statement yourself that "he provides the
> next
> > two example from Ch. Up which actually (in my understanding) should
> belong
> > to vivarta. The next examples provided in the above sloka is - just as
> clay
> > becoming pot and gold becoming ornament."
> >
> > Even in the context of the chapter, Maya is introduced later after
> > establishing आनन्द itself as the उपादानकारण of the world. And as I said
> > earlier, the definition we have for परिणाम and विवर्त may not be exactly
> so
> > in that context. 13.8 defines परिणाम as अवस्थान्तरतापत्तिरेकस्य परिणामिता
> > and 13.9 defines विवर्त as अवस्थान्तरभानं तु विवर्तः which restricts the
> > example only to that, which व्याख्या also explains that deviation from
> > earlier state so for परिणाम-- यथा क्षीरमृत्सुवर्णादीनां
> > क्षीरादिव्यवहारयोग्यतां परित्यज्य दध्यादिव्यवहारयोग्यतापत्तिः। Just as
> curd
> > does not remain in the same state as to make milk-like transactions with
> > anymore, so too pot and bangle cannot be treated exactly like clay and
> gold
> > in transactions, respectively. That much is the example for
> categorisation.
> >
> >
> > and its contents and in relation to Vedanta.
> > >
> > I would say that I was connecting it to Vedanta alone, while you seem to
> be
> > connecting it to science also. Considering that, I'll skip a para...
> >
> >
> > > ...
> > >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > We can come up justifications why he lists gold-ring as parinaama
> along
> > > with milk-curds in the beginning and later exhaustively analyzes
> > > differentiating them as vivarta and parinaama.  My word was 'I was
> > puzzled
> > > by this'.
> > >
> > We don't need to come up with justifications, Vidyaranya Muni himself
> > expected this getting puzzled. Please refer to shloka 13.51. which says:
> > क्षीरादौ परिणामोऽस्तु पनस्तद्भाववर्जनात्। एतावता मृदादीनां दृष्टान्तत्वं
> न
> > हीयते। The व्याख्या explains this further as: एतावता क्षीरादेः
> परिणामित्वेन
> > मृदादीनां सुवर्णादीनां दृष्टान्तत्वं विवर्तदृष्टान्तभावो न हीयते न
> नश्यति।
> > अयमभिप्रायः -- क्षीरस्य
> > पूर्वरूपपरित्यागपुरःसरमवस्थान्तरप्राप्तिसद्भावात्परिणामित्वमेव,
> > मृत्स्य्वर्णयोस्तु अवस्थान्तरोत्पत्तिसद्भावेऽपि
> > पूर्वरूपपरित्यागाभावाद्विवर्ततापीति।
> > Please note the specific words एवकार with milk-curd example and usage of
> > अपि with clay-pot and ornament-gold
> > that makes it clear that while the milk-curd example is only for परिणाम,
> > the latter two fit with both, bringing me back to my earlier response as
> to
> > going with only the commonality between the example and exemplified.
> >
> > If you are happy with your explanations, that is fine.
> > >
> > Sadaji, the explanation given was not for my happiness although आत्मनस्तु
> > कामाय सर्वं प्रियं भवति :)
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Here as Vidyaji  points out that we are only dealing with upaadanana
> > > kaaraNa where sruti statement itself applies. Abhinna nimitta upaadana
> > > kaaraNam comes later with Ikshata statement.
> > >
> > >
> > By the starting verses of the 13th chapter, it appears that Vidyaranya
> Muni
> > is indicating अभिन्ननिमित्तोपादानकारण because he starts with आनन्द as
> > उपादान itself.
> >
> > gurupAdukAbhyam,
> > --praveen
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