[Advaita-l] Shruti prAmANya and jnAna

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Raghav ji,

"My understanding of connection between svataHprAmAnyam and Apaurusheyatvam
-"

I sent an email earlier this morning talking of the link between svatah
prAmANya and apaurusheyatva in pUrva mImAmsa / advaita matAs - hadn't
realised that you had sent this mail. I am seeing this just now.

In relation to your point "Apaurusheyatvam is important because the initial
vRtti produced by shruti vAkya -s , i.e., the 'untested' artha grasped by
each of us by shadArthasambandha is also instantaneously grasped as pramA
rather than rejected as bhrama or saMshaya-sahita (doubt-ridden)." - there
are two aspects here:

1) the status of shruti as pramANa
2) the acceptance of shruti tAtparya by the intellect

While apaurusheyatva and svatah prAmANya confer shruti with prAmANya (1) ,
that may be insufficient for most intellects to accept the message given by
the shruti (2).

To take the mirror example, even if one were to see a flat, clear mirror
(apaurusheya, svatah prAmANya shruti) and one does not have any other means
of knowing what one looks like, how do we know what is seen is the
reflection of our own face? How do we know what our face looks like? To
determine the correctness of the reflection, we have to employ various
yuktis to satisfy ourselves - for example: *everything else that is seen
with the eyes is the same as the reflection in the mirror*, therefore *when
our face is reflected in the mirror that is what it must be like*, etc.

Therefore, for aikya to be accepted as pramA we need to be satisfied that
shruti pramANa is nirdushTa through various means - understand the reasons
for apaurusheyatva / svatah prAmANya for shruti (ie clearly know what is an
assumption and what is logically inferrable for us to hold this position),
what is the ultimate message of the shruti (tAtparya nirNaya), and once we
know that aikya is the tAtparya, by what other means can we justify
non-perceived aikya and reject perceived bheda - aikya sAdhaka / bheda
bAdhaka yuktis etc  This I believe is the "testing" that Swamiji is
referring to.

To answer Sri Srinath Vedagarbha's question, the testing is not because
Veda's do not have prAmANya, or that they do not have svatah prAmANya (ie
shruti needs the support of other pramANAs to reveal the truth), it is so
that the intellect is able to understand a) why shruti is pramANa b) if so,
what is the message of shruti c) how to reconcile that message with
perception of everyday reality.

Regards,
Venkatraghavan


On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <
raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Venkatraghavan ji
>
> You had referred to the mirror analogy. Just a idea here...
> My understanding of connection between svataHprAmAnyam and Apaurusheyatvam
> -
>
> Apaurusheyatvam is important because the initial vRtti produced by shruti
> vAkya -s , i.e., the 'untested' artha grasped by each of us by
> shadArthasambandha is also instantaneously grasped as pramA rather than
> rejected as bhrama or saMshaya-sahita (doubt-ridden).
>
> We don't doubt the mirror because we believe the mirror is flat (veda is
> apauruSheya) and not concave etc., as in a mirror in an amusement park
> where there is an agenda to distort and amuse. Even so any pauruSheya vAkya
> can be doubted even as it is heard, like we doubt a mirror in an amusement
> park. So saMshaya rahita pramA may not arise when i am standing in front of
> a mirror with unknown topology or listening to a pauruSheya vAkya.
>
> The Apta case is taken care of because *by definition*, one who is part of
> the advaita vedAntic teaching tradition is an Apta. His vAkya is only
> anuvAda of shruti.
>
> Om
> Raghav
>
> On 05-Oct-2016 10:11 am, "Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> Namaste,
> In addition to what Praveenji said, where pramANa leads to a conclusion
> which is  apparently contradictory to what one gets from other pramANas,
> one necessarily has to adopt yukti to determine which is correct.
>
> This does not make the pramANa  paratah - only determine which pramANa has
> been applied incorrectly.
>
> Regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
> On 5 Oct 2016 4:26 a.m., "Praveen R. Bhat via Advaita-l" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Namaste Srinathji,
> >
> > On 5 Oct 2016 1:47 am, "Srinath Vedagarbha via Advaita-l" <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 8:46 AM, श्रीमल्ललितालालितः via Advaita-l <
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Another thing to consider, there are two types of prAmANya, tested
> and
> > > > otherwise.
> > > > Tested one needs all what I said. Untested is svataH and is saved by
> > > > apauruSheyatva.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > There are no such thing as two types of prAmANya. It is either prAmANya
> > or
> > > aprAmANya.
> >
> > If a person has jaundice and sees the world yellow, does his sight have
> > pramANya or does it have aprAmANya? And how will you land there without
> > testing?
> >
> > Moreover, advaitins reach advaita by tAtparyanirNaya, which is testing of
> > prAmANya. Else it would be blind faith which takes all contradictory
> > statements of shruti as-is and then one is likely to lose even that
> faith.
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