[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Why only jagat is mithya and jeeva is brahman !!??

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Sri Bhaskar ji,

<< jagat and its satyatvaM are the subject matter of pratyaksha pramANa>>

Let us keep this to only pAramArtha drishTi. 3 reasons why this statement
is inapplicable in pAramArtha:

1) shAstram tu antyam pramANam says AchArya. He says that no pramANa,
pramEya, pramAtr bhedA is possible in Brahman. jnAni loses his pramANA
status, perception loses its pramANA status and jagat loses its pramEya
status after the onset of jnAna. That is how brahmaivedam amrutam purastAt,
should be understood.

2) Even in vyavahAra, the adhishThAna of nAma rUpa can never be available
for perception, by your own logic. How is the anadhigatatvam of shruti
preserved if perception reveals Brahman as adhishThAnam? If it did, one
doesn't need shruti at all. So one has to conclude that what is available
for perception is only the mithyA component of jagat, never it's
adhishThAna.

3) Which brings me to the 3rd point. Considering  perception of nAma rUpa
as *perception* is valid only in vyavahAra - ie so long as they are not
understood as mithyA.  Once nAma rUpa is understood as mithyA, no pramA can
be generated for a mithyA vastu. The very definition of pramA is
abAdhitArtha vastu vishayaka jnAnam pramA. So if nAma rUpa is sublated, you
cannot call it's jnAnam pramA, and you cannot call the means of generating
that jnAnam pramANA.

So by 2 (anadhigatatvam), adhishThAna cannot be perceived, and by 3, nAma
rUpa perception is not perception at all.

By 1, AchArya himself relegates all pramANA prameya pramAtr vyavahAra only
until the generation of brahma jnAnam.

With this I am going to stop and let you consider whatever you have read -
over 100 emails have been exchanged on the subject. If after reading all of
them you still feel your position is justified, I'm not sure there is much
further to say. All the best.

Regards,
Venkatraghavan
On 23 Mar 2016 4:34 a.m., "Bhaskar YR" <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:

>
>
> praNAms Sri Venkatraghavan prabhuji
>
> hare Krishna
>
>
>
> Therefore, bAdha according to AchArya is the negation of the false notion
> that the world has any independent existence.
>
>
>
> Ø     Beautiful prabhuji.  This is what shankara clearly said in
> chAndOgya.  And the independent existence of kArya jagat is not possible
> and independent existence of jagat is kevala avidyAkalpita from the result
> of which jeeva gets the ahaMkAra, mamakAra (notions that he is kartru,
> bhOktru etc.) whereas in reality kAryAkArOpi kAraNasya AtmabhUta eva,
> anAtmabhUtasya anArabhyatvAt clarifies shankara.  Interestingly shankara
> talking about kAryAkAra i.e. nAma rUpa and clarifying that KAraNasya
> Atmabhutameva not mithyA as popularly understood.
>
> And shAstra as a pramANa for its ‘vishaya’ is not to prove the pratyaksha
> pramANa as wrong.  Shabda / Agama pramANa has a different subject matter
> which cannot be known by any other pramANa.
>
> Undoubtedly, but that is not the subject matter of the discussion.
>
>
>
> Ø     I had to bring this point because the subject matter of this thread
> is ‘jagat’ mithyatvaM and jagat and its satyatvaM are the subject matter of
> pratyaksha pramANa.  Since brahma as the kAraNa of this jagat is
> apratyaksha unlike in mrud-ghata (where mrittike in ghata rUpa pratyasha
> pramANita) we have rely on shruti pramANa to know that jagat kAraNatvaM
> which is avyavahArya, nirvishesha in its very nature.  Now the question is
> are we dependent on shruti pramANa to know/realize the sva-svarUpa of ours
> or are we using the shruti pramANa to prove prama of pratyaksha pramANa is
> wrong??  From two different pramANa-s we are knowing the two prama-s.  I.e.
> through pratyaksha pramANa this jagat and through shabda pramANa
> nirvishesha, ateendriya brahman.  Or the other way asking the question is :
> is the one-ness of brahman determined by pratyaksha pramANa or shAstra
> pramANa?? It is impossible to realize the one-ness of brahman through
> pratyaksha pramANa because what is pratyaksha is jagat and NOT the
> nirvishesha brahman.  So, the one-ness of the brahman (ekatvaM) is not at
> all the subject matter of pratyaksha pramANam. The ekatvaM needs to be
> known by pramANAntara (different pramANa) i.e. shabda that which is again
> should not go against ‘subject matter’ of another pramANa i.e.
> pratyaksha.   As you know one pramANa will never contradict other pramANa.
> And now the important question is :  why at all the names and forms of this
> multifarious jagat to be declared as mithya (when it is pratyaksha pramANa
> siddha ) to realize the Agama pramANita ekatvaM of brahman??  edam sarvaM
> yadayamAtma, bramaivedaM amrutaM purastAt etc. are the clear-cut
> declaration of shruti, can this shruti statements to be swept aside just to
> prove the jagat mithyatva and brahman satyatva??  I donot think this is an
> appropriate approach to the shruti yukti and anubhava to realize the
> nirvishesha brahman.  For that matter even for the Agama it is impossible
> to convey an unknown (apratyaksha) thing without taking the shelter under
> words & objects of the world says shankara somewhere.  If we are tenacious
> to prove the jagat mithyatva then that which has been being conveyed by
> this mithA prapancha by Agama too become mithyA only not satya.
>
>
>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>
> bhaskar
>