[Advaita-l] avidya is Agantuka

[Ravi Kiran]

Namaste

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 3:02 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 1:04 PM, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Sri Ravi Kiran Ji,
>>
>>
>> Reg << In the bhashyam to Br.Up.4.3.22, it is said that ..
>>
>> प्रकृतः स्वयञ्ज्योतिरात्मा अविद्याकामकर्मविनिर्मुक्त इत्युक्तम्,
>> असङ्गत्वादात्मनः, आगन्तुकत्वाच्च तेषाम् ।
>>
>> It has been said that the self-effulgent Ātman which is being described is
>> free from ignorance, desire and work, for it is unattached, while they are
>> adventitious. >> ,
>>
>>
>> This is followedup in the Bhashyam by the following
>>
>>
>> << तत्र एवमाशङ्का जायते ; चैतन्यस्वभावत्वे सत्यपि एकीभावात् न जानाति
>> स्त्रीपुंसयोरिव सम्परिष्वक्तयोरित्युक्तम् ; तत्र प्रासङ्गिकम् एतत् उक्तम्
>> —
>> कामकर्मादिवत् स्वयञ्ज्योतिष्ट्वमपि अस्य आत्मना न स्वभावः, यस्मात्
>> सम्प्रसादे नोपलभ्यते — इत्याशङ्कायां प्राप्तायाम्, तन्निराकरणाय,
>> स्त्रीपुंसयोर्दृष्टान्तोपादानेन, विद्यमानस्यैव स्वयञ्ज्योतिष्ट्वस्य
>> सुषुप्ते अग्रहणम् एकीभावाद्धेतोः, न तु कामकर्मादिवत् आगन्तुकम्   >>
>>
>>
>> ( Translation by Swami Madhavananda ) << Here an objection is raised. The
>> Shruti has said that although the Self is Pure Intelligence, it does not
>> know anything ( in the state of profound sleep ) on account of its
>> attaining unity, as in the case of a couple in each other's embrace. The
>> Shruti has thereby practically said that like desire, work etc, the
>> selfeffulgence of the Atman is not its true nature, since it is not
>> perceived in the state of profound sleep. This objection is refuted by a
>> reference to the illustration of the couple in each other's embrace , and
>> it is asserted that the selfeffulgence is certainly present in profound
>> sleep , but it is not perceived on account of unity ; it is not
>> advetituous
>> like desire, work etc. >>
>>
>>
>> Note the concluding sentence. << न तु कामकर्मादिवत् आगन्तुकम्  >> . The
>> Bhashyam clearly asserts that Avidya ( nonperception ) is not adventituous
>> ( आगन्तुकम् ) like desire,work etc.
>>
>
> In the  bhāṣya sentences we can perceive these points:
>
> 1.  //प्रकृतः स्वयञ्ज्योतिरात्मा अविद्याकामकर्मविनिर्मुक्त इत्युक्तम्,
> असङ्गत्वादात्मनः, आगन्तुकत्वाच्च तेषाम् ।//
>
> avidyā, kāma and karma - three entities have been listed.
>

Yes, verily avidya (अविद्या) is inclusive, as clearly seen in the above
statement in bhAshyam.


>  आगन्तुकत्वाच्च तेषाम्  shows that all the three are included since the
> word 'teṣām' is in plural (more than two). If avidyā were to be excluded,
> the word to convey that would have been: tayoḥ.
>
> Apart from that, even in << न तु कामकर्मादिवत् आगन्तुकम्  >> the word
> 'ādi' after kāma and karma stands for some entity, and that, as per the
> context, is avidyā. So, the bhāṣyam is not excluding avidyā from the list
> even here.
>

Thanks for this clarification.


>
> Also, Anandagiri, in his gloss to the above says:
>
> यद्यपि न आगन्तुकत्वमविद्यायाः न युक्तम्, तथापि अभिव्यक्ता सा अनर्थहेतुः
> आगन्तुकी इति द्रष्टव्यम् ।
>
> // Even though the adventitiousness of avidyā is not reasonable, yet, the
> manifestation of avidyā, that is the cause of all trouble, is definitely
> adventitious. Thus is to be understood.//
>

Interesting to see Anandagiri's interpretation of bhAshyam.

>
> So, there is nothing wrong in admitting avidyā (manifested avidyā) to be
> adventitious, just like kāma and karma.  Anandagiri's purport is: avidyā is
> anādi and hence cannot be said to be āgantuka. Yet, its manifested form is
> āgantuka.
>


> regards
> subrahmanian.v
>
>
>>
>> Hence I in my understanding it is not correct to interpret the Bhashyam as
>> suggesting that Avidya is आगन्तुकम् ( adventituous ).
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 10:03 PM, Ravi Kiran <ravikiranm108 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Namaste Sri Chandramouli Ji
>> >
>> > I had noted your references in earlier e-mail, but had not got chance to
>> > check the same (in the bhashyam and the context in which it is stated),
>> for
>> > the mention of avidya as Agantuka ..Thanks for the clarification
>> >
>> > As we can see in Br.Up bhAshyam, it is said that the svayam jyotistvam
>> of
>> > Atman is not perceived in sushupti, due to ekibhAvam
>> >
>> > ** स्वयञ्ज्योतिष्ट्वस्य सुषुप्ते अग्रहणम् एकीभावाद्धेतोः, न तु
>> > कामकर्मादिवत् आगन्तुकम्
>> >
>> > In that line, it is said while avidya is Agantuka, svayam jyotistvam is
>> > not, as it is the very innate nature of Atman.
>> >
>> > It further states - self-effulgent Atman (in sushupti) is free from
>> > avidya-kAma-karma
>> >
>> > ** अविद्याकामकर्मविनिर्मुक्तमेव तद्रूपम्, यत् सुषुप्ते आत्मनो गृह्यते
>> > प्रत्यक्षत इति
>> >
>> > In this line of thought, was interested to see further refs/elaboration
>> > regarding this mention.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 4:00 PM, H S Chandramouli <
>> hschandramouli at gmail.com
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Sri Ravi Kiran Ji,
>> >>
>> >> Have I misundrestood your question when I had replied earlier ?? Does
>> >> your question pertain to the reasons advanced , namely  << for it is
>> >> unattached, while they are
>> >> adventitious. >> , being repeated elsewhere ( shruti/bhashyam ) ?? If
>> so
>> >> , of course my earlier response does not address the question.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 5:17 PM, Ravi Kiran via Advaita-l <
>> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Namaste
>> >>>
>> >>> In the bhashyam to Br.Up.4.3.22, it is said that ..
>> >>>
>> >>> प्रकृतः स्वयञ्ज्योतिरात्मा अविद्याकामकर्मविनिर्मुक्त इत्युक्तम्,
>> >>> असङ्गत्वादात्मनः, आगन्तुकत्वाच्च तेषाम् ।
>> >>>
>> >>> It has been said that the self-effulgent Ātman which is being
>> described
>> >>> is
>> >>> free from ignorance, desire and work, for it is unattached, while they
>> >>> are
>> >>> adventitious.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Are there any other places (Sruti / bhashyam ), where we can find such
>> >>> mention ?
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks
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>> >>
>> >
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