[Advaita-l] Shankara authenticates Shiva as the son of Brahma

[D Gayatri]

//In fact in the VR itself, when Rama fought elsewhere, the comparison
is: Rama fought like Rudra.//

Let us look at the Valmiki Ramayana itself to see what Valmiki thinks
of Shiva and Vishnu -

जृम्भितम् तत् धनुः दृष्ट्वा शैवम् विष्णु पराक्रमैः || १-७५-१९
अधिकम् मेनिरे विष्णुम् देवाः स ऋषि गणाः तदा |

["On seeing the bow of Shiva rendered inert by the mettlesomeness of
Vishnu, from then on the gods along with the assemblages of sages
deemed Vishnu to be the paramount... [1-75-19b, 20a]

Secondly, these are the words of Hanuman in the Ramayana, Sundara Kanda -

ब्रह्म स्वयमुभूश्च तुराननो वा |
रुद्रस्त्रिणेत्रस्त्रिपुरान्तको वा |
इन्द्रो महेन्द्रः सुरनायको वा |
त्रातुम् न शक्ता युधि रामवध्यम् || ५-५१-४५

["Either Brahma the self-existing god with four faces or Rudra with
three eyes and the destroyer of Tripura (the city built of gold,
silver and iron in the sky, air and earth, by Maya for the demons and
burnt by Shiva), or Mahendra the god of atmosphere and sky as also the
lord of celestials would not be able to protect the one to be killed
by Rama in battle."]



On 14 August 2016 at 05:07, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 7:31 PM, D Gayatri <dgayatrinov10 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Rama is supposed to behave exactly like a human being, because of brahma's
>> boon to Ravana. So the comparison is incorrect. And if you talk of Ramayana,
>> there is an incident described in bAla kANDa where the gods want to know
>> whether Shiva or Vishnu is supreme. A fight ensues between them and Vishnu
>> wins and the gods decide Vishnu is superior. That most certainly goes
>> counter to your "Shiva is supreme" vAda.
>
>
>
> In this context one can read what Veda Vyasa says to Ashwatthama in the
> MB:It is there in the Drona parva.  The complete details can be found in the
> article:
>
> https://adbhutam.wordpress.com/2015/05/25/veda-vyasa-was-not-a-bigot/
>
> [[Nīlakanṭha said: By My grace, you Nārāyaṇa, will be of unequalled strength
> among humans, gods and other divine beings.]
>
>
>
> न च त्वा प्रसहिष्यन्ति देवासुरमहोरगाः |
>
> न पिशाचा न गन्धर्वा न नरा न च राक्षसाः ||७५||
>
>
>
> न सुपर्णास्तथा नागा न च विश्वे वियोनिजाः |
>
> न कश्चित्त्वां च देवोऽपि समरेषु विजेष्यति ||७६||
>
>
>
> न शस्त्रेण न वज्रेण नाग्निना न च वायुना |
>
> नार्द्रेण न च शुष्केण त्रसेन स्थावरेण वा ||७७||
>
>
>
> कश्चित्तव रुजं कर्ता मत्प्रसादात्कथञ्चन |
>
> अपि चेत्समरं गत्वा भविष्यसि ममाधिकः ||७८||
>
>
>
> [Due to My grace, You, Nārāyaṇa, will not be harmed/killed by any of the
> beings or weapons of this creation.  Also in the event of your entering a
> battle, you will be more powerful than Me, Rudra.]
>
> व्यास उवाच||
>
>
>
> एवमेते वरा लब्धाः पुरस्ताद्विद्धि शौरिणा |
>
> स एष देवश्चरति मायया मोहयञ्जगत् ||७९||
>
>
>
> Vyāsa concluded his reply to Ashwatthāma’s question: These boons were
> secured by
>
> Shourie (Hari) (from Rudra).  Hari, wanders this earth deluding beings with
> Māyā. ]
>
>
>
> तस्यैव तपसा जातं नरं नाम महामुनिम् |
>
> तुल्यमेतेन देवेन तं जानीह्यर्जुनं सदा ||८०||
>
>
>
> [Of His (Nārāyaṇa’s) penance has Arjuna, the Nara, been born.  Arjuna is
> equal to Nārāyana.
>
> Thus Vyāsa answered Ashvatthāma’s question on how/why indeed Kṛṣṇa and
> Arjuna remained unaffected by the Āgneya missile that was released against
> them.]
>
>
>
> The above episode of the MB is also reflected in the Harivamśa:
>
> http://www.mahapashupatastra.com/2011/12/top-n-reasons-to-call-bhagawatam-bogus.html
>
> “yathA mainAkamAshritya tapastvamakaroH prabho |
> tathA mama varaM kR^iShNa saMsmR^itya sthairyamApnuhi |
> avadhyastvamajeyashcha mattaH shUratarastathA |
> bhavitAsItyavochaM yattattathA na tadanyathA |” (Harivamsa Purana
> 2:74:37-38)
>
> “O kRiShNa! As you did penance staying on mainAka, you received a boon from
> me. Be firm in your mind, remembering that boon. You can not be killed, you
> can not be conquered, and you will be more valiant than me. All this will
> happen as told by me. None will be able to change this”.
>
> It is because of this that wherever there is a ‘fight’ reported between
> Rudra and Nārāyaṇa, in the MB or the Vālmiki Rāmāyaṇa or anywhere else,
> where Nārāyāna is invariably the winner.  This is the boon granted by Shiva
> to Nārāyaṇa: you will be more valiant than me.
>
> Obfuscating this fact, the bigoted ones try to show Śiva as someone inferior
> who is subdued by Nārāyaṇa.
>
>
> In fact in the VR itself, when Rama fought elsewhere, the comparison is:
> Rama fought like Rudra.
>
>
> In the article cited above, the MB instance where Vishnu and Brahma are born
> of Shiva is also recorded. So, there is no point in saying 'Shiva is son of
> Brahma'.  Veda Vyasa has said all these.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, 13 August 2016, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 5:32 PM, D Gayatri via Advaita-l
>>> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Alright, you have a point. So I will explain why you can't compare birth
>>>> of
>>>> Rudra from Prajapati to that of Ishwara taking an incarnation. This is
>>>> because, the baby Rudra, in the satapatha brahmana episode, cries that
>>>> he
>>>> is not free from sins. Certainly, this is not the mark of Ishwara, since
>>>> Ishwara is always free from sins.
>>>
>>>
>>> Rama in the VR laments he is suffering only because of his past karma. Is
>>> that a mark of Ishwara? Also, in the Shatapatha brahmana, I have seen a
>>> Sayana bhashya saying that it is an ā
>>>
>