[Advaita-l] Fwd: Difficulty with Akhandakara Vrtti

[H S Chandramouli]

Many of the members are familiar with the talks of Swami Paramarthananda. I
was listening to talk no 94 on Bruhadaranyaka Upanishad today. Towards the
end of this talk he very briefly refers to “ akhandakara vritti “” and
asserts the aptness of the term “ vritti “ therein. Those who look for
authoritative confirmation on such issues may like to refer to this talk.
The link is


 << https://www.mediafire.com/?grw5k6xl6vm09 >> ,


 serial no. 7 , talk 94. Each serial number covers 12-15 talks. Hope this
info is useful.


 Regards

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 3:11 PM, Ravi Kiran <ravikiranm108 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 2:41 PM, H S Chandramouli <
> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Earlier I had posted the following
>>
>>
>>  << This vritti , accompanied by Chidabhasa , unveils the Aavarana
>> covering
>> the Chaitanyam . Instead of the vritti envoloping , and associated
>> Chidabhasa illumining , the “ object “ ( Chaitanyam in this case ) , as
>> happens in respect of a vritti directed towards any object with attributes
>> , the vritti itself is illumined entirely by the Chaitanyam directly .
>> >>.
>>
>>
>>  I notice I had left out another significant aspect in this
>> understanding. For sake of completion , I am now adding it.
>>
>>
>>  << In addition , The Chidabhasa which had all along considered itself
>> distinct from the Chaitanyam merges with the Chaitanyam being nondifferent
>> from it. What this means is that the distinct “ I “ sense which the
>> Chidabhasa had produced and which is resposible for all the samsaric
>> experiences gets destroyed . >> .
>>
>
> Perfect !  ajnAna nAsha with jnAna utpatti
>
> thanks for the addition ..
>
>>
>>  Regards
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Ravi Kiran <ravikiranm108 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 5:54 PM, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  << This vritti , accompanied by Chidabhasa , unveils the Aavarana
>>>> covering
>>>> the Chaitanyam . Instead of the vritti envoloping , and associated
>>>> Chidabhasa illumining , the “ object “ ( Chaitanyam in this case ) , as
>>>> happens in respect of a vritti directed towards any object with
>>>> attributes
>>>> , the vritti itself is illumined entirely by the Chaitanyam directly .
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, the vRitti is still needed by the antahakarana to remove the
>>> ignorance of its Source,
>>> but illumination is "directly" by the svayamprakAsaka Chaitanya vastu (
>>> Source) and
>>> the illumination is NOT or Never by the chidabhasa, as it is never ever
>>> necessary :)
>>>
>>> Pranams and Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>> The
>>>> content of the vritti is then essentially Atman itself as there is no
>>>> other
>>>> content relating to the “ I / knowerhood “ ( pramatru ) or “ know “ (
>>>> pramana ) components ( associated with cognition through Chidabhasa )
>>>> present in all cognition relating to Anatma vastus. In that sense ,
>>>> there
>>>> is no essential difference between Source ( Chaitanyam ) and the
>>>> content of
>>>> the vritti. >> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I know I am treading on dangerous ground and the terminology may not
>>>> pass
>>>> close expert scrutiny . But this is the best I could do. For further
>>>> refinement in understanding / terminology , better to refer to experts/
>>>> standard texts / talks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Regards
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 5:51 PM, H S Chandramouli <
>>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> > From: Ravi Kiran <ravikiranm108 at gmail.com>
>>>> > Date: Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 3:16 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Difficulty with Akhandakara Vrtti
>>>> > To: H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Dear Sri Chandramouli Ji
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 2:55 PM, H S Chandramouli <
>>>> > hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Dear Sri Ravi Kiran,
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>  Reg << Mind is no doubt needed for both as the instrument for
>>>> >> cognition.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>  Can you pl elaborate this statement? As you are accepting the need
>>>> for
>>>> >> mind in self cognition, what is the role played by mind in
>>>> Realization
>>>> >> (without the involvement of chidabhasa or reflected consciousness) ?
>>>> Kindly
>>>> >> clarify >> ,
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>   I had covered this in my definition of “ akhandakara vritti “ .
>>>> Mind
>>>> >> is the only instrument available for knowledge, whether of Atman or
>>>> Anatma.
>>>> >> In respect of Anatma, the knowledge is gained through the
>>>> participation of
>>>> >> Chidabhasa . But in respect of Atman ( Self Realization ) , it is
>>>> through
>>>> >> Chaitanyam itself and not through Chidabhasa. A drishtanta in this
>>>> >> connection , which has always fascinated me , goes like this.
>>>> Consider a
>>>> >> mirror reflecting light onto a dark room through a small hole,
>>>> illuminating
>>>> >> whatever vastus are covered by the reflected light . The mirror is
>>>> slowly
>>>> >> turned towards the source of light itself. When the mirror directly
>>>> faces
>>>> >> the source of light, does the reflected light illumine the source of
>>>> light
>>>> >> ?? Till this point is reached , all the vastus covered by it were
>>>> illumined
>>>> >> by the reflected light. But not now. On the other hand the mirror
>>>> itself
>>>> >> can be considered to have been illumined by the source of light.
>>>> Same is
>>>> >> the case at the time of Self Realization. As long as knowledge of
>>>> Anatma
>>>> >> vastus were being cognized by the mind ( equivalent of mirror ) ,
>>>> >> Chidabhasa ( equivalent of reflected light ) was illumining the
>>>> vastus. But
>>>> >> once the mind is intensely concentrated on the Atman by the sadhaka (
>>>> >> equivalent of mirror turned directly towards the source of light )
>>>> and the
>>>> >> Guru pronounces the Maha Vakya “ tatvamasi “ , the resulting Vritti
>>>> in the
>>>> >> sadhaka's mind
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Ok, this Vritti ( akhandakara )  that arises is not of chidabhasa,
>>>> since
>>>> > it is directed towards the attributeless Source ( in the sense that a
>>>> > vritti directed towards any object with attributes,  alone is of
>>>> chidabhasa
>>>> > )...In that sense, there is no difference (of any) between the Source
>>>> and
>>>> > the akhandakara vritti ( content or substance wise)
>>>> >
>>>> >> uncovers the veil of avidya covering the Chaitanyam ( aavarana
>>>> naasha ) ,
>>>> >> leading to the illumination of the mind directly by the Chaitanyam (
>>>> >> equivqlent of the source of light ) . This leads to Self Realization
>>>> , the
>>>> >> knowledge of the form “ aham Brahmasmi “ .
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>  You could also usefully refer to the link
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>  <<
>>>> >>
>>>> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2014-November/037681.html
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>  for a discussion in this Forum on the role of mind in Self
>>>> Realization.
>>>> >> You have also participated in that thread.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>  Regards
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks
>>>> >
>>>> > Namaste
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Ravi Kiran <ravikiranm108 at gmail.com
>>>> >
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Dear Sri Chandramouli Ji
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Thanks for fwding your response:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 12:03 PM, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
>>>> >>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>  What about the knowledge of Sushupti << I know I slept well >> .
>>>> >>>> Chidabhasa is dormant/inactive. But still knowledge is there.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Yes, this I know in waking ( jagrat), the existence (unbroken) that
>>>> >>> persisted during sushupti ...there was never a moment when
>>>> existence was
>>>> >>> not..
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> This
>>>> >>>> knowledge is therefore not attributable to Chidabhasa.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>> Yes
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>  We can also consider from another viewpoint , the difference
>>>> between
>>>> >>>> jada
>>>> >>>> ( inert ) and svaprakasha ( selfevident ) vastu. The fundamental
>>>> >>>> difference
>>>> >>>> is that for cognizing a jada vastu an illuminating entity is needed
>>>> >>>> whereas
>>>> >>>> for cognizing a svaprakasha vastu another illuminating entity is
>>>> not
>>>> >>>> needed. For both nodoubt mind is involved as the instrument for
>>>> >>>> cognition.
>>>> >>>> According to you Chidabhasa is needed for both the above
>>>> cognitions.
>>>> >>>> Then
>>>> >>>> there is no difference between them.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>  My point is Chidabhasa is needed for cognizing all inert vastus .
>>>> But
>>>> >>>> it
>>>> >>>> is not needed for cognizing Svaprakasha vastu ( It is so by
>>>> definition
>>>> >>>> itself ) .
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Yes, we can say, in sushupti, the svaprakAsha vastu exists or
>>>> illumines
>>>> >>> by itself..  there is no need for mind or other illumining entity
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Mind is no doubt needed for both as the instrument for
>>>> >>>> cognition.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Can you pl elaborate this statement? As you are accepting the need
>>>> for
>>>> >>> mind in self cognition, what is the role played by mind in
>>>> Realization
>>>> >>> (without the involvement of chidabhasa or reflected consciousness)
>>>> ? Kindly
>>>> >>> clarify
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>  That the cognition is at vyavaharika level only has not been
>>>> disputed .
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Thanks
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Namaste
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
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>>>
>>>
>>
>