[Advaita-l] Difficulty with Akhandakara Vrtti

[Venkatraghavan S]

Sri Aurobind,
Thanks for your email on the subject - I don't agree with this statement
made by you:
>>In the presence of swaroopa which
is of nature of knowledge ignorance can't stand unless assisted by
anthakarana.

If you are saying that avidyA and brahman (or swaroopa in your terminology)
cannot exist simultaneously, that is not correct. Avidya doesn't require
the antah karaNa for its existence.  Avidya rests and exists (apparently)
only because of brahman, and not antah karaNa - that is the moolAvidyA or
mAyA or kAraNa sharirA.

The absence of knowledge in deep sleep is due to the absence of any
vishaya, but that doesn't mean that the folded mind becomes an aparoksha
brahma gyAni then. Your statement that "ignorance cannot stand in the
presence of swaroopa unless assisted by antahkaraNa" cannot be true,
because otherwise in deep sleep the moolavidyA would be destroyed because
of its proximity to brahman and absence of antahkaraNam.

The ananda that is experienced in deep sleep is because the kAraNa sharira
simply reflects brahman and no other thing, and as the vritti in deep sleep
is a pure antar-mukha vritti without any bahir vishaya disturbances, the
reflection of ananda swaroopam of brahman  on the folded mind causes the
"experience of ananda" more than one would typically face in the jAgrat
avasthA - the exception being yogic samAdhi, when there is a similar chitta
vritti nirodhA.

Regards,
Venkatraghavan


On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 4:29 PM, Aurobind Padiyath via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Hari Om! Sadaji,
>
> I've studied in the Brhadaranyaka Bhashya that there is no Ajnana in deep
> sleep. The "I don't know" is a memory on waking up from sleep and never
> expressed otherwise. That deep sleep is a swaroopa state where no vishesha
> vijnana of anything other than swaroopa. In the presence of swaroopa which
> is of nature of knowledge ignorance can't stand unless assisted by
> anthakarana.
> Upon waking the anthakarana becomes active and we have a mixture of
> knowledge.
>
> Even in waking and dream what we experience is both Sat and Asat together.
> The very reason that we have knowledge is because of that Sat but the Asat
> conceals the truth to those who do not have the Sat-Asat viveka.
> Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.
>
> Hari Om!
>
> Aurobind Padiyath
> On 22 Jun 2015 20:39, "kuntimaddi sadananda" <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Aurobind Padiyatji - PraNAms
> >
> > Provided a crisp explanation.
> >
> > vRitti in a general sense can be considered as modification of the mind,
> > while in particular sense as thought. In deep sleep state, there is
> > akhandaakaara ajnanaa vRitit - - unchanging - I do not know - a
> homogeneous
> > unchanging vRitti - a modification of mind due to its folded state
> > expressed as the absence of subject-object duality.
> >
> > You have taken aptly the mirage water example. Iswara sRishTi is still
> > there, and the perception of the plurality and the subject-object duality
> > is still there just as perception of the so-called waters of the mirage.
> > Yet there is akhanda jnaana vRitti that there is no waters in the mirage
> > waters. Thus jagat's mithyaatvam is understood in spite of
> vyaavaharically
> > there is an apparent plurality.
> >
> > Akhandaakaara jnaana vRitti is constant or continuous awareness or
> > knowledge that I am sat chit ananda in spite of apparent plurality at
> > transactional level. In that sense in contrast to akhandaakaara ajnaana
> > vRitti in the deep sleep state expressed as I do not know - it is akhanda
> > jnaana vRitti of swaruupa jnaanam as aham brahmaasmi.
> >
> > Bhagavana Ramana puts this as - aham aham taya, spurati hRit swayam,
> > parama puurNa sat. - I am - I am - I am - that spontaneously raises in
> the
> > mind but this I am in contrast to previous I am, paramam and puurNam and
> > Sat swaruupam.
> >
> > Hari Om!
> > Sadananda
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Mon, 6/22/15, Aurobind Padiyath via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Difficulty with Akhandakara Vrtti
> >  To: "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> >  Cc: "advaita-l at lists advaita-vedanta. org" <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >  Date: Monday, June 22, 2015, 6:00 AM
> >
> >  Dear Sri
> >  Chandramouliji,
> >
> >  No need to
> >  be confused.
> >
> >  First I said
> >  the word vritti is being used for want of a better word.
> >  Here
> >  the word vritti is being used as that
> >  which substituted all other vritti
> >  even
> >  though it is not a vritti by itself.
> >
> >  Second I said it is a state and not a vritti
> >  with the above in mind. But as
> >  explained any
> >  state has validity only in vyavaharika level, but this is
> >  not
> >  a vyavaharika state but a paramarthika
> >  avastha and the word avastha is for
> >  explaining from the vyavaharika point of view.
> >  Because once known there is
> >  no return to
> >  vyavaharika state. Vyavahara seen only by those who are
> >  aspiring to get there, but not who has known
> >  the "to be known". From the
> >  view
> >  point of one who has known the Truth as Sathyam Jnanam
> >  Anantham, there
> >  is nothing more to be known
> >  and he becomes a "krthakrthyah" or one who has
> >  nothing more to be done. His Vyavahara is not a
> >  Vyavahara from his point of
> >  view but only
> >  from those who see him from Vyavahara. It's called an
> >  Aabhsam.
> >  So when you mix up
> >  both these views they may appear to contradictory.
> >
> >  For the one who thinks a
> >  mirage is water, he will think that the one who
> >  knows the truth of mirage and warns the others
> >  there is no water it is an
> >  Aabhsam, is not
> >  telling the truth.  He is also seeing apparently water
> >  only. But the one who knows it is not water in
> >  spite he also has all the
> >  same appearance of
> >  water, knows the truth and do not get deluded.
> >  Same way when all that appears as many is in
> >  essence only one. For bubble
> >  floating on sea
> >  can see waves, froth and the deep waters, but knows all
> >  are
> >  water including itself and there is
> >  nothing other than that.
> >
> >  I've used some examples for clarity but
> >  they also have limitations.
> >
> >  Pranams,
> >
> >  Aurobind Padiyath
> >  On 22 Jun 2015 14:49,
> >  "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> >  wrote:
> >
> >  > Dear Sri
> >  Aurobind Padiyath,
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >  I am somewhat
> >  surprised. With your current statement
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >  << You are right when you say that
> >  a state cannot be beret of both
> >  > thought
> >  and thoughtlessness. For "a state" is valid only
> >  from the
> >  > vyavaharika point of view and
> >  the very nature of it is built on thoughts
> >  > and intervening absence before the next
> >  one >> ,
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >  your statements in the previous mails
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >  << "akhandakara
> >  vritti"
> >  > Akhanda meaning unbroken,
> >  Akara meaning (here) Swaroopa,  Vritti (here)
> >  > meaning continues,  (not thoughts).
> >  > So, that continuous Swaroopa avastha which
> >  displaced the earlier wave like
> >  >
> >  thoughts of vishaya which were arising and subsiding
> >  including that of deep
> >  > sleep like state
> >  where visheshvijnana absence is felt, because even deep
> >  > sleep
> >  > is not
> >  continuous, is the true state of akhandakara vritti.
> >  >>
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >  and
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >  << Having
> >  explained that, let me try to come to the akandakara
> >  vritti.
> >  > The pramana for that state is
> >  what is told as " Atma vyatirekena nasti
> >  > kinchit". Even thought or
> >  thoughtlessness are not applicable to that state
> >  > where the mind cannot reach nor words can
> >  explain. >> ,
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >  both become invalid
> >  because in both “ akhandakara vritti “ is termed
> >  > such a “ state “ only. Kindly
> >  clarify.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >  Pranams and Regards
> >  >
> >  > On Mon, Jun 22, 2015
> >  at 2:18 PM, Aurobind Padiyath <
> >  > aurobind.padiyath at gmail.com>
> >  wrote:
> >  >
> >  >> Dear
> >  Sri Chandramouliji,
> >  >> You are right
> >  when you say that a state cannot be beret of both thought
> >  >> and thoughtlessness. For "a
> >  state" is valid only from the vyavaharika point
> >  >> of view and the very nature of it is
> >  built on thoughts and intervening
> >  >>
> >  absence before the next one. In Paramarthata "Atma
> >  vyatirekena kinchit
> >  >> naasti
> >  ".
> >  >> Neither the original
> >  Upanishads nor the Bhashya ever mentions the term
> >  >> "akandakara vritti". This
> >  has crept in from later commentators attempt to
> >  >> explain the inexplicable.
> >  >> Even though the word akandakara is not
> >  mentioned you can get a clarity if
> >  >>
> >  you can go thru the Bhashya on Brhadaranyaka where detailed
> >  explanation of
> >  >> " Brahmaivedam
> >  sarvam" is being discussed in the beginning.
> >  >> Pranams,
> >  >>
> >  Aurobind Padiyath
> >  >> On 22 Jun 2015
> >  13:58, "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> >  >> wrote:
> >  >>
> >  >>> Dear Sri Aurobind Padiyath Ji,
> >  >>>
> >  >>>
> >  >>>  Thanks for the clarification
> >  that you are not referring to nirvikalpa.
> >  >>> It removes a major impediment in
> >  progressing the discussion. A great
> >  >>> relief.
> >  >>>
> >  >>>
> >  >>>  Once we talk of “ akhandakara
> >  vritti “ and “ a state “ , we are in the
> >  >>> Vyavaharika plane only and not in
> >  Paramarthika plane. But the rest of your
> >  >>> note mostly pertain to the
> >  Paramarthika plane. It cannot be maintained << Even
> >  >>> thought or thoughtlessness are not
> >  applicable to that state  >> . A “
> >  >>> state “ must necessarily be
> >  either with thought ( as in jagrat or svapna )
> >  >>> or without thought ( as in
> >  sushupti or samadhai ) . A “ state “ cannot be
> >  >>> bereft of both. Kindly clarify.
> >  >>>
> >  >>>
> >  >>>  Also please give a reference to
> >  where this concept of “ akhandakara
> >  >>> vritti “ is explained so that I
> >  can study and better understand the context
> >  >>> in which it has been explained.
> >  >>>
> >  >>>
> >  >>>  Pranans and Regards
> >  >>>
> >  >>> On
> >  Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Aurobind Padiyath <
> >  >>> aurobind.padiyath at gmail.com>
> >  wrote:
> >  >>>
> >  >>>> Sri Chandramouliji,
> >  >>>> Hari Om!!!
> >  >>>> Nirvikapla stage is not
> >  culminating one and hence cannot be Brahma
> >  >>>> Jnana avastha. Just because
> >  you have no vikalpa does not mean you have
> >  >>>> knowledge. You have no vikalpa
> >  even during deep sleep. The difference
> >  >>>> between the two is one is
> >  involuntary and the other is a result of forced
> >  >>>> control of mind.
> >  >>>> Having explained that, let me
> >  try to come to the akandakara vritti.
> >  >>>> The pramana for that state is
> >  what is told as " Atma vyatirekena nasti
> >  >>>> kinchit". Even thought or
> >  thoughtlessness are not applicable to that state
> >  >>>> where the mind cannot reach
> >  nor words can explain. But it is not
> >  >>>> nothingness. It or that state
> >  is simply an "Is" or what we call in Sanskrit
> >  >>>> as asti. To what or whom can
> >  that state explain when there is none other
> >  >>>> than just itself in a state of
> >  being?
> >  >>>> I do not know if I
> >  can ever explain it in words. It is where all
> >  >>>> thoughts become knowledge just
> >  as where all ingredients of a yagna becomes
> >  >>>> only fire in the yagnakund.
> >  >>>> Hari Om!!!
> >  >>>>
> >  >>>> Aurobind Padiyath
> >  >>>> On 21 Jun 2015 21:08, "H
> >  S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> >  >>>> wrote:
> >  >>>>
> >  >>>>> Dear Sri Aurobind Padiyath
> >  Ji,
> >  >>>>>
> >  >>>>> Can you kindly clarify if
> >  this state you are mentioning is a '
> >  >>>>> thoughtless state "
> >  or a " thought with unitary knowledge " . The
> >  question
> >  >>>>> is genuine as
> >  many interpret nirvikalpa samadhi ( thoughtless state )
> >  also
> >  >>>>> as Brahma
> >  Jnana.
> >  >>>>>
> >  >>>>> Regards
> >  >>>>>
> >  >>>>> Chandramouli
> >  >>>>>
> >  >>>>> On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at
> >  6:05 PM, Aurobind Padiyath via Advaita-l <
> >  >>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >  wrote:
> >  >>>>>
> >  >>>>>> Hari Om,
> >  >>>>>> "akhandakara
> >  vritti"
> >  >>>>>>
> >  Akhanda meaning unbroken, Akara meaning (here) Swaroopa,
> >  Vritti
> >  >>>>>> (here)
> >  >>>>>> meaning continues,
> >  (not thoughts).
> >  >>>>>> So,
> >  that continuous Swaroopa avastha which displaced the earlier
> >  wave
> >  >>>>>> like
> >  >>>>>> thoughts of vishaya
> >  which were arising and subsiding including that
> >  >>>>>> of deep
> >  >>>>>> sleep like state where
> >  visheshvijnana absence is felt, because even
> >  >>>>>> deep sleep
> >  >>>>>> is not continuous, is
> >  the true state of akhandakara vritti. It is
> >  >>>>>> called a
> >  >>>>>> vritti as a misnomer
> >  due to the absence of a better word.
> >  >>>>>>
> >  >>>>>> Hari om!!!
> >  >>>>>>
> >  >>>>>> Aurobind Padiyath
> >  >>>>>>
> >  >>>>>>
> >  >>>>>>
> >  _______________________________________________
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> >  >>>>>
> >  >>>
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