[Advaita-l] Difficulty with Akhandakara Vrtti
Aurobind Padiyath
aurobind.padiyath at gmail.com
Mon Jun 22 11:20:15 CDT 2015
Hari Om! ! Sadaji,
I agree with you on the other points mentioned in your mail except the
following
"For ajnaani, when he goes to deep sleep state he sleeps as ajnaani only -
no ajnaani gets up from deep sleep state as jnaani."
Ajnana is only for the antahkarana not for swaroopa. Jnana will be needed
where ever Ajnana is present. In your explanation of deep sleep if Ajnana
is there, Guru and upadesha will be needed there also in deep sleep.
Ajnana being only experienced during waking, because the Antahkarana
becomes active on waking with the budhi, part of Anthakarana, reflecting
the Chit. That's why when the Ajnani wakes as Ajnani and Jnani as Jnani.
Like the tiger and mosquito as respective animals. A blue flower will
reflect only blue just as red as red.
So all reflections in a Ajnana Anthakarana can only reflect ignorance. And
Ajnana is only in waking because of which the need to eradicate that in
waking. Deep sleep is "Easha Swabhavah" as told in Mandukya. Even waking
and dream is the same, that's why we see Jnanis like any others having
waking deep sleep and dream. But they have the Jnanam which do not delude
them like others.
Hari Om!! !
Aurobind Padiyath
On 22 Jun 2015 21:28, "kuntimaddi sadananda" <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> AurobindJi - PraNAms
>
> In the swayam jyoti Brahmana the deep sleep state is described close to
> turiiyam. For ajnaani, when he goes to deep sleep state he sleeps as
> ajnaani only - no ajnaani gets up from deep sleep state as jnaani. I think
> in the end Shankara points out that deep sleep state different from
> turiiyam as emphasized in the Mandukya - where it negates all the three
> states ,na prajnana ghanam..
>
> One has to be careful in interpretation of this section in consistence
> with the Mandukya Upanishad.
>
> In the Tai. Up. the deep sleep ananda is classified as ananda, moda and
> pramoda -The degree of ananda corresponds to the pratibimba ananda only. If
> it is jnaana swaruupam then ananda swaruupam also should be there.
>
>
> Vidyaranaya provides an exhaustive analysis in the 11th Ch. of Pancadashi
> - the deep sleep state where akhandaakaara ajnana vRitti of the deep sleep
> state is described.
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 6/22/15, Aurobind Padiyath <aurobind.padiyath at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Difficulty with Akhandakara Vrtti
> To: "kuntimaddi Sadananda" <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "advaita-l at lists advaita-vedanta. org" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Monday, June 22, 2015, 11:29 AM
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadaji,
> I've studied in the Brhadaranyaka Bhashya
> that there is no Ajnana in deep sleep. The "I don't
> know" is a memory on waking up from sleep and never
> expressed otherwise. That deep sleep is a swaroopa state
> where no vishesha vijnana of anything other than swaroopa.
> In the presence of swaroopa which is of nature of knowledge
> ignorance can't stand unless assisted by anthakarana.
>
>
> Upon waking the anthakarana becomes active and we have a
> mixture of knowledge.
> Even in waking and dream what we experience is
> both Sat and Asat together. The very reason that we have
> knowledge is because of that Sat but the Asat conceals the
> truth to those who do not have the Sat-Asat viveka.
>
> Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.
> Hari Om!
> Aurobind Padiyath
> On 22 Jun 2015 20:39,
> "kuntimaddi sadananda" <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> Aurobind
> Padiyatji - PraNAms
>
>
>
> Provided a crisp explanation.
>
>
>
> vRitti in a general sense can be considered as modification
> of the mind, while in particular sense as thought. In deep
> sleep state, there is akhandaakaara ajnanaa vRitit - -
> unchanging - I do not know - a homogeneous unchanging vRitti
> - a modification of mind due to its folded state expressed
> as the absence of subject-object duality.
>
>
>
> You have taken aptly the mirage water example. Iswara
> sRishTi is still there, and the perception of the
> plurality and the subject-object duality is still there just
> as perception of the so-called waters of the mirage. Yet
> there is akhanda jnaana vRitti that there is no waters in
> the mirage waters. Thus jagat's mithyaatvam is
> understood in spite of vyaavaharically there is an apparent
> plurality.
>
>
>
> Akhandaakaara jnaana vRitti is constant or continuous
> awareness or knowledge that I am sat chit ananda in spite of
> apparent plurality at transactional level. In that sense in
> contrast to akhandaakaara ajnaana vRitti in the deep sleep
> state expressed as I do not know - it is akhanda jnaana
> vRitti of swaruupa jnaanam as aham brahmaasmi.
>
>
>
> Bhagavana Ramana puts this as - aham aham taya, spurati hRit
> swayam, parama puurNa sat. - I am - I am - I am - that
> spontaneously raises in the mind but this I am in contrast
> to previous I am, paramam and puurNam and Sat swaruupam.
>
>
>
> Hari Om!
>
> Sadananda
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> On Mon, 6/22/15, Aurobind Padiyath via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Difficulty with Akhandakara
> Vrtti
>
> To: "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>
> Cc: "advaita-l at lists advaita-vedanta. org"
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>
> Date: Monday, June 22, 2015, 6:00 AM
>
>
>
> Dear Sri
>
> Chandramouliji,
>
>
>
> No need to
>
> be confused.
>
>
>
> First I said
>
> the word vritti is being used for want of a better
> word.
>
> Here
>
> the word vritti is being used as that
>
> which substituted all other vritti
>
> even
>
> though it is not a vritti by itself.
>
>
>
> Second I said it is a state and not a vritti
>
> with the above in mind. But as
>
> explained any
>
> state has validity only in vyavaharika level, but this
> is
>
> not
>
> a vyavaharika state but a paramarthika
>
> avastha and the word avastha is for
>
> explaining from the vyavaharika point of view.
>
> Because once known there is
>
> no return to
>
> vyavaharika state. Vyavahara seen only by those who are
>
> aspiring to get there, but not who has known
>
> the "to be known". From the
>
> view
>
> point of one who has known the Truth as Sathyam Jnanam
>
> Anantham, there
>
> is nothing more to be known
>
> and he becomes a "krthakrthyah" or one who
> has
>
> nothing more to be done. His Vyavahara is not a
>
> Vyavahara from his point of
>
> view but only
>
> from those who see him from Vyavahara. It's called
> an
>
> Aabhsam.
>
> So when you mix up
>
> both these views they may appear to contradictory.
>
>
>
> For the one who thinks a
>
> mirage is water, he will think that the one who
>
> knows the truth of mirage and warns the others
>
> there is no water it is an
>
> Aabhsam, is not
>
> telling the truth. He is also seeing apparently water
>
> only. But the one who knows it is not water in
>
> spite he also has all the
>
> same appearance of
>
> water, knows the truth and do not get deluded.
>
> Same way when all that appears as many is in
>
> essence only one. For bubble
>
> floating on sea
>
> can see waves, froth and the deep waters, but knows all
>
> are
>
> water including itself and there is
>
> nothing other than that.
>
>
>
> I've used some examples for clarity but
>
> they also have limitations.
>
>
>
> Pranams,
>
>
>
> Aurobind Padiyath
>
> On 22 Jun 2015 14:49,
>
> "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dear Sri
>
> Aurobind Padiyath,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I am somewhat
>
> surprised. With your current statement
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > << You are right when you say that
>
> a state cannot be beret of both
>
> > thought
>
> and thoughtlessness. For "a state" is valid
> only
>
> from the
>
> > vyavaharika point of view and
>
> the very nature of it is built on thoughts
>
> > and intervening absence before the next
>
> one >> ,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > your statements in the previous mails
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > << "akhandakara
>
> vritti"
>
> > Akhanda meaning unbroken,
>
> Akara meaning (here) Swaroopa, Vritti (here)
>
> > meaning continues, (not thoughts).
>
> > So, that continuous Swaroopa avastha which
>
> displaced the earlier wave like
>
> >
>
> thoughts of vishaya which were arising and subsiding
>
> including that of deep
>
> > sleep like state
>
> where visheshvijnana absence is felt, because even deep
>
> > sleep
>
> > is not
>
> continuous, is the true state of akhandakara vritti.
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > and
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > << Having
>
> explained that, let me try to come to the akandakara
>
> vritti.
>
> > The pramana for that state is
>
> what is told as " Atma vyatirekena nasti
>
> > kinchit". Even thought or
>
> thoughtlessness are not applicable to that state
>
> > where the mind cannot reach nor words can
>
> explain. >> ,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > both become invalid
>
> because in both “ akhandakara vritti “ is termed
>
> > such a “ state “ only. Kindly
>
> clarify.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Pranams and Regards
>
> >
>
> > On Mon, Jun 22, 2015
>
> at 2:18 PM, Aurobind Padiyath <
>
> > aurobind.padiyath at gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> Dear
>
> Sri Chandramouliji,
>
> >> You are right
>
> when you say that a state cannot be beret of both
> thought
>
> >> and thoughtlessness. For "a
>
> state" is valid only from the vyavaharika point
>
> >> of view and the very nature of it is
>
> built on thoughts and intervening
>
> >>
>
> absence before the next one. In Paramarthata "Atma
>
> vyatirekena kinchit
>
> >> naasti
>
> ".
>
> >> Neither the original
>
> Upanishads nor the Bhashya ever mentions the term
>
> >> "akandakara vritti". This
>
> has crept in from later commentators attempt to
>
> >> explain the inexplicable.
>
> >> Even though the word akandakara is not
>
> mentioned you can get a clarity if
>
> >>
>
> you can go thru the Bhashya on Brhadaranyaka where
> detailed
>
> explanation of
>
> >> " Brahmaivedam
>
> sarvam" is being discussed in the beginning.
>
> >> Pranams,
>
> >>
>
> Aurobind Padiyath
>
> >> On 22 Jun 2015
>
> 13:58, "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> Dear Sri Aurobind Padiyath Ji,
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Thanks for the clarification
>
> that you are not referring to nirvikalpa.
>
> >>> It removes a major impediment in
>
> progressing the discussion. A great
>
> >>> relief.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Once we talk of “ akhandakara
>
> vritti “ and “ a state “ , we are in the
>
> >>> Vyavaharika plane only and not in
>
> Paramarthika plane. But the rest of your
>
> >>> note mostly pertain to the
>
> Paramarthika plane. It cannot be maintained <<
> Even
>
> >>> thought or thoughtlessness are not
>
> applicable to that state >> . A “
>
> >>> state “ must necessarily be
>
> either with thought ( as in jagrat or svapna )
>
> >>> or without thought ( as in
>
> sushupti or samadhai ) . A “ state “ cannot be
>
> >>> bereft of both. Kindly clarify.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Also please give a reference to
>
> where this concept of “ akhandakara
>
> >>> vritti “ is explained so that I
>
> can study and better understand the context
>
> >>> in which it has been explained.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Pranans and Regards
>
> >>>
>
> >>> On
>
> Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Aurobind Padiyath <
>
> >>> aurobind.padiyath at gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> Sri Chandramouliji,
>
> >>>> Hari Om!!!
>
> >>>> Nirvikapla stage is not
>
> culminating one and hence cannot be Brahma
>
> >>>> Jnana avastha. Just because
>
> you have no vikalpa does not mean you have
>
> >>>> knowledge. You have no vikalpa
>
> even during deep sleep. The difference
>
> >>>> between the two is one is
>
> involuntary and the other is a result of forced
>
> >>>> control of mind.
>
> >>>> Having explained that, let me
>
> try to come to the akandakara vritti.
>
> >>>> The pramana for that state is
>
> what is told as " Atma vyatirekena nasti
>
> >>>> kinchit". Even thought or
>
> thoughtlessness are not applicable to that state
>
> >>>> where the mind cannot reach
>
> nor words can explain. But it is not
>
> >>>> nothingness. It or that state
>
> is simply an "Is" or what we call in Sanskrit
>
> >>>> as asti. To what or whom can
>
> that state explain when there is none other
>
> >>>> than just itself in a state of
>
> being?
>
> >>>> I do not know if I
>
> can ever explain it in words. It is where all
>
> >>>> thoughts become knowledge just
>
> as where all ingredients of a yagna becomes
>
> >>>> only fire in the yagnakund.
>
> >>>> Hari Om!!!
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Aurobind Padiyath
>
> >>>> On 21 Jun 2015 21:08, "H
>
> S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>
> >>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>> Dear Sri Aurobind Padiyath
>
> Ji,
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> Can you kindly clarify if
>
> this state you are mentioning is a '
>
> >>>>> thoughtless state "
>
> or a " thought with unitary knowledge " . The
>
> question
>
> >>>>> is genuine as
>
> many interpret nirvikalpa samadhi ( thoughtless state )
>
> also
>
> >>>>> as Brahma
>
> Jnana.
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> Regards
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> Chandramouli
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at
>
> 6:05 PM, Aurobind Padiyath via Advaita-l <
>
> >>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>
> wrote:
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>> Hari Om,
>
> >>>>>> "akhandakara
>
> vritti"
>
> >>>>>>
>
> Akhanda meaning unbroken, Akara meaning (here)
> Swaroopa,
>
> Vritti
>
> >>>>>> (here)
>
> >>>>>> meaning continues,
>
> (not thoughts).
>
> >>>>>> So,
>
> that continuous Swaroopa avastha which displaced the
> earlier
>
> wave
>
> >>>>>> like
>
> >>>>>> thoughts of vishaya
>
> which were arising and subsiding including that
>
> >>>>>> of deep
>
> >>>>>> sleep like state where
>
> visheshvijnana absence is felt, because even
>
> >>>>>> deep sleep
>
> >>>>>> is not continuous, is
>
> the true state of akhandakara vritti. It is
>
> >>>>>> called a
>
> >>>>>> vritti as a misnomer
>
> due to the absence of a better word.
>
> >>>>>>
>
> >>>>>> Hari om!!!
>
> >>>>>>
>
> >>>>>> Aurobind Padiyath
>
> >>>>>>
>
> >>>>>>
>
> >>>>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
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>
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> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
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>
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