[Advaita-l] Difficulty in Ignorance Analysis

[kuntimaddi sadananda]

Sreenivasa Murthyji – PraNAms

Your questions are loaded. There are others who can provide better answers to your questions.  I can only provide my understanding.

Epistemologically, Knowledge without a qualifier cannot be defined. It is only knowledge of some x or y; which are by definition objective knowledge. Pure unqualified knowledge that which is undefinable is what Vedanta calls it as jnaanam as in satyam, jnaanam, anantam- brahma. Hence it refers to pure consciousness and is therefore undefinable other than saying it is infinite – prajnanam brahma. 

Hence when we are discussing the tula avidya we are discussing ignorance of objectifiable entities – say, physics, chemistry, astrology, etc. If I ask you, Do know Chemistry- the very question implies an objectifiable entity, and you can say – I do not know or I know. When I asked, in response, you have looked into your memory and based on the information report that I know or I do not know – in essence it is-  I know that I know orI know that I do not know.  You have the knowledge of the presence or the absence of the knowledge of chemistry – viditam vaa avidtam vaa – That YOU KNOW. Here we used the word – knowledge two times. I know that I know and I know that I do not know. The first KNOW does not refer to any particular knowledge while the second one does. The first one refers to pure consciousness and the second one refers to the vRitti jnaanam. Hence in Kenopanishat – it says consciousness is revealed in every knowledge – pratibodha
 viditam matam; our problem is we are paying attention to the second know and ignoring the first one. This is one way of looking at the two types of knowledge.

Actually, in the perceptual knowledge (elaborately analyzed in say, Vedanta Paribhaasha in terms of perceptuality condition – for reference, I have provided a critical analysis of the text and is stored in the website www.advaitaforum.org. But there are  other texts also available on the epistemological issues), this aspect has been discussed in terms of perceptuality condition – where consciousness of the subject and existence of the object expressed as vRitti are joining together for one to be conscious of the existence of the object. Thus we have vRitti jnaanam when I know chemistry that removes the avidya vRitti of Chemistry – This is called vRitti vyaapti and phala vyaapti (Shree Pranipataji pointed in his mail to me after seeing my post in the list that the terms vyaapti is used for this). This in all objective knowledge – there is vRitti vyaapti and phala vyaapti. – I did not know chemistry and now I know chemistry. Jnaana vRitti is
 required to dis-cover or to remove the ignorance covering the knowledge of chemistry. In essence knowledge of Chemistry is eternal but I am removing bit by bit by jnaana vRitti as I learn Chemistry. 

Only problem in the objective knowledge is the more you uncover the more one finds what is uncovered is very little compared what is covered. Hence one becomes super specialist in narrower and narrower area – in mathematics it is called delta function – knowing more and more about less and less. However in all these the first knowledge ever remains the same – I KNOW – that I know this and I do not that etc. Scientists only dis-cover laws - not invent them - implying they uncovered the cover that is covering the knowledge. This discovery is done using pramanas- pratyaksha, anumaana etc. Pramana is means of uncovering the cover over objective knowledge. 


How to know about the Knower, who knows and is present in every knowledge? – now we are asking about the self-knowledge. Truth is one cannot know - since it is aprameyam not an object of knowledge. Yet I do not know this Knower. The problem here is even though I KNOW is there or knower is there in every knowledge (pratibodha viditam) yet I do not this knower – for one thing it is the subject I which cannot be objectified and second is due to muula avidya – I take myself to be other than what I am – hence I identify this first knower (whom Krishna calls as kshetrajna) is local buddhi, which itself is an object of this knower! Hence I have misconceptions about this knower, I, as I take myself to be I am this, this starting from buddhi. I am the subject and this is an object. The ignorance of myself is self-evident in this very equation. This forms the fundamental ignorance or muula avidya.

 Since I KNOW is there in every knowledge, but I am not paying attention to it due to lack of clear understanding of the nature of this - I Know. For this only I need Vedanta which points 1) that I am pure consciousness that enlivens  the buddhi as instrument of knowledge and 2) more importantly even the instruments and the means – all nine yards also I am as I am the upaadaana kaaraNa of the buddhi and the objective world also. 

Ramanuja for example differentiates the objective knowledge as dharma bhuta jnaanam since it involves vRitti jnaanam and dharmi jnaanam or self-knowledge, without involving vRitti. Since objects (and thus creation) is infinite (virat purusha) a dharma bhuuta jnaanam for a jiiva is always limited and he can never become sarvajna like Iswara and therefore He cannot create like Iswara in his model. Hence jiiva becomes angee or part of the total virat purusha or Brahman.  

Advaita Vedanta emphasizes the fact that – eka vijnanaane sarva vijnaanam bhavati – when I know – referring to the the first KNOW as I am that very knower and that I am is Brahman , then other objective knowledge reduces to the knowlkedge of superficial names and forms, without any substantive  (adhiShTaanam) of their own, or essentially reduces to mithyaa jnaanam. Hence I have substantive knowledge when I know I am Brahman and that is not phalam as in objective knowledge since I am all the time Brahman even when I do not know that I am Brahman. Hence inquiry is required using Vedanta. – tat vijnaasva – brahma jignaasa – where inquiry is required or jnaana vRitti is required to remove my misconceptions about myself to dis-cover I am Braham. Since Brahman cannot be covered, even the so-called discovery is also mithyaa only. Hence there is no phalavyaapti only vRitit vyaapti intems of vedanta vichaara. 

I do not know if I have addressed your question properly. I just wrote what came to my mind.

Hari Om!
Sadananda


--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 6/11/15, sreenivasa murthy via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Difficulty in Ignorance Analysis
 To: "kuntimaddi sadananda" <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>, "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015, 9:25 AM
 
 Dear Sri Sadnanda,
     I request you to clarify in what sense you have used
 the word "knowledge" in the sentence "removing the obstacles
 covering the knowledge". Who illumines the existence of the
 obstacles?Who is the remover of the obstacle? These
 questions arose in when going through your reply. As a
 scientist, have you cognized the existence of these two
 kinds of ignorance?As a self-evident, self-evident
 principle I am not aware of these two kinds of avidyas.
 Will you please help me in cognizing these two avidyas in my
 anuBava. I KNOW that I do not know. This is in my
 anuBava. To which category of avidya doe it belong
 to? Please help me in understanding your statements so that
 I can start doing sadhana to get rid of the two avidyas.
  A statement can never be established as a fact by giving
 an analogy. It has to be shown as a fact in one's own
 anuBava or life.
 With respectful pranams,Sreenivasa Murthy
        From: kuntimaddi sadananda via
 Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
  To: Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com>;
 A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>;
 H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
 
  Sent: Thursday, 11 June 2015 5:51 PM
  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Difficulty in Ignorance Analysis
    
 PraNAms
 
 Jast a note: 
 
 For tula avidya there is jnaana VRitti and phala vRitti
 while for muula avidya, there is jnana vRitti but no phala
 vRitti, since self knowledge is self-revealing and not a
 product of some Vritti. Jnana vRitti is required to remove
 the obstacles covering the knowledge. Sureswara provide a
 beautiful example to illustrate this.
 
 In a pitch dark room one cannot see anything. To see
 anything a light (say torch light ) is needed. As I focus
 the light on each object, each object gets revealed - that
 is jnana vRitti to reveal the object and phala is result of
 the knowledge of the object. 
 
 In the process I see a pot upside down. To see the pot I
 need the torch light. Out of curiosity, I lift the pot to
 see what is inside. I find a candle burning there. Now do I
 need the torch light to see the burning candle? Same thing
 applies to muula avidya. I need vedanta shastra jnaanam for
 removing the obstacles covering the knowledge. However there
 is no phala vRitti since what is discovered is what has been
 evident all the time. 
 
 Hari Om!
 Sadananda
 --------------------------------------------
 On Thu, 6/11/15, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 wrote:
 
  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Difficulty in Ignorance Analysis
  To: "Venkatesh Murthy" <vmurthy36 at gmail.com>,
 "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
  Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015, 2:35 AM
  
  Dear Sri Venkatesh Murthy
  ji,
  
  
  
  Regarding your observation
  
  
   << But the words
  मूलाविद्या and
  तूलाविद्या are not found in Sankara
  Prasthana Traya Bhashyas. May be they were
  explained by later
  Advaitis. >> ,
  
  
   it is no
  doubt true. In fact what I had mentioned in my post was
  based on
  one of the schools of thought
  elaborating on the Bhashyam. There are other
  schools of thought as well. But to answer your
  main question without
  getting into these
  alternate schools of thought I recap your question here
  again.
  
  
   << If the earlier
  covering Ignorance is destroyed when I see the
  pot how can the second
  Ignorance - Adhyaasa
  arise? If the first covering Ignorance is
  destroyed the second Ignorance must not arise.
  Because Vaadiraaja says
  Advaitis say the
  Avaraka Ajnana - covering Ajnana is the Material
  Cause of the Adhyaasa. Then if this is true I
  must not see the pot. >> .
  
  
   Covering Ignorance, second
  Ignorance - Adhyasa , Pot ( using your
  terminology ) can all be considered as products
  of one and the same Avidya
  , akin to several
  crystals of salt and the Ocean itself. ( All the salt
  crystals are products of one and the same Ocean
  water only ) . There is
  nothing like first
  Ignorance, second Ignorance etc. Destruction of one or
  more of the salt crystals has no effect on the
  other crystals or the Ocean
  itself. Thus the
  view of Sri Vadiraja , as stated by you , has no
  validity.
  
  
  
  Regards
  
  
  
  On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:33
  AM, Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
  advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
  wrote:
  
  > Namaste
  >
  > Many thanks and
  Pranams to Sri Chandramouli and Sri Venkataraghavan
  > for explaining so nicely and it is like
  Lord Siva Chandramouleeshwara
  > and Lord
  Vishnu Venkataraghava both have cleared my doubt. A brief
  > answer may be given.
  >
  > Brahman is the
  Ashraya for मूलाविद्या the Root
  Ignorance. If we have
  > to know Brahman
  the मूलाविद्या must be removed. Then
 we
  know Brahman.
  > Similarly any object like
  Pot is the Ashraya for तूलाविद्या the
  Modal
  > Ignorance. If we have to know Pot
  the तूलाविद्या must be removed. When
  > we see a Pot the
  तूलाविद्या  'Veil of Ignorance'
  gets destroyed by Pot
  > Vrtti and we know
  the pot. But the Pot Adhyaasa is still there. It is
  > not destroyed. Why? Because the
  मूलाविद्या is not destroyed. It is
  the
  > Material Cause for the Adhyaasa of
  pot and all objects in the world.
  >
  Unless and until the मूलाविद्या is
  destroyed the Adhyaasa will not be
  >
  destroyed. Sravana, Manana and Nididhyaasana are required
 to
  destroy
  >
  मूलाविद्या.
  >
  > But the words
  मूलाविद्या and
  तूलाविद्या are not found in Sankara
  > Prasthana Traya Bhashyas. May be they were
  explained by later
  > Advaitis.
  >
  > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015
  at 3:07 PM, Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
  > wrote:
  > > Great
  explanation, Sri Chandramouli.
  > >
  > > To add to what you have said:
  Whenever an object such as pot, etc is
  >
  > perceived, that object is pervaded by the
  perceiver's thought or vritti.
  > >
  This vritti pervasion (vyApti) is  the remover of the
 veil
  of ignorance
  > > about the object.
  However, vritti being jadam, it cannot illuminate the
  > > object, which in the case of most
  objects are jadam too and therefore
  >
  need
  > > illumination. The thing to
  note here is that vritti vyApti can only
  > remove
  > > the veil
  of ignorance over the object. Object illumination
  requires
  > > something else.
  > >
  > > As we know,
  the mind reflects the sakshi chaitanyam or pure
  > consciousness,
  > >
  as chidAbhAsa, or reflected consciousness. The chidAbhAsA
 is
  present
  > > whenever the mind is
  present, and as the mind consists of thoughts, the
  > > chidAbhAsa is present automatically
  in every thought too.
  > >
  > > When thoughts pervade the object, the
  chidAbhAsa that is present in the
  > >
  thought also automatically pervades the object. The
  chidAbhAsa, in the
  > > context of
  knowledge, is also referred to as phalam. Therefore
  chidAbhAsa
  > > pervasion or phala
  vyApti also automatically takes place whenever
  > perception
  > > takes
  place. The phalam, which is of the nature of
 consciousness,
  when
  > > pervading the object is the
  thing which causes the illumination of the
  > > object, and not vritti, which is
  jadam.
  > >
  > >
  To summarise, vritti vyApti removes ignorance and phala
  vyApti creates
  > > illumination. Every
  knowledge of an object therefore requires three
  > things -
  > > the
  object, vritti vyApti and phala vyApti.
  >
  >
  > > Coming to Sri VAdirAja, his
  claim that the removal of the veil of
  >
  ignorance
  > > over the pot should also
  remove the pot adhyAsA does not have merit.
  > Vritti
  > > vyApti
  can only remove the ignorance of the object over which the
  vritti
  > is
  > >
  pervaded. So when perceiving a pot, vritti vyApti on the
 pot
  can only
  > remove
  >
  > ignorance of the pot, not a cow that is not an object
  of perception at
  > the
  > > time.
  > >
  > > Similarly, and this is the crucial
  bit of the argument, during the
  > >
  perception of a pot, the avidya that covers the pot is the
  only thing
  > that
  >
  > is removed, and not the avidya that covers the
 upahita
  chaitanyam that is
  > > enclosed by the
  pot.
  > >
  > >
  Therefore in the perception of a pot, pot adhyAsa is not
  removed - the
  > pot
  >
  > doesn't disappear. Then what about a gyAni who
  perceives Brahman
  > everywhere?
  > > Does the pot disappear for him?
  > >
  > > In the case
  of a gyAni, the perception process is different. The
  gyAni
  > > perceives both the pot and
  the upahita chaitanyam in the pot. The latter
  > > perception is in the form of the
  thought - "I am the chaitanyam that is
  > > enclosed in the pot too". This
  is the vritti vyApti that removes the
  >
  > ignorance over the upahita chaitanyam or Brahman.
  > >
  > > ChidAbhAsa
  is present in this Brahman-knowledge-vritti too, however,
  no
  > > illumination is required by
  chidAbhAsa for knowledge of Brahman - because
  > > the Brahman is self effulgent. The
  very illumining power of chidAbhAsa is
  >
  > sourced from Brahman. Therefore, phala vyApti has no
  role in the
  > knowledge
  > > of Brahman.
  >
  >
  > > To summarize, two vritti
  vyAptis take place for the gyAni - vritti
  > vyApti of
  > > the
  pot, and vritti vyApti of the upahita chaitanyam of the
  pot.  Each of
  > > these vritti vyApti
  remove knowledge of the respective items being
  > pervaded
  > > by the
  vritti, viz., pot and upahita chaitanyam, or Brahman.
  > >
  > > As the
  phala vyApti of the pot takes place for a gyAni too, he
 has
  all
  > three
  > >
  things required for the knowledge of the pot - the object
  (pot), vritti
  > > vyApti over the pot,
  and the phala vyApti over the pot.
  >
  >
  > > However, while a gyAni
  continues seeing the pot,  because the avidyA
  > AvaraNA
  > > over the
  upahita chaitanyam is removed by his mind's Brahman
  knowlede
  > > vritti, he knows that the
  pot is simply mithya, and the upahita
  >
  chaitanyam
  > > that is enclosed in the
  mithya is himself, the only satyam.
  >
  >
  > > Sri Venkatesh Murthy - I hope
  this hasn't confused matters. Sorry for the
  > > long mail.
  >
  >
  > > Regards,
  >
  > Venkatraghavan S
  > >
  > > On 10 Jun 2015 08:34, "H S
  Chandramouli via Advaita-l"
  > >
  <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
  wrote:
  > >>
  >
  >> Dear Sri Venkatesh Murthy ji,
  >
  >>
  > >>
  >
  >>  At the location of the object, the Avidya
  associated with Consciousness
  > >>
  appears as the object and hence is termed the material
 cause
  of the
  > >> object.
  > >> This is Adhyasa. This object
  encloses the General Consciousness (
  >
  Samanya
  > >> Chaitanya ) as well
  which then is termed Specific Consciousness (
  > Vishesha
  > >>
  Chaitanya ) . This Vishesha Chaitanya itself is associated
  with Avidya
  > >> also
  > >> which is termed Toola Avidya (
  तूलाविद्या ) . When you say
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>  << When I see a pot the
  Ignorance cover is lifted and then only I
  > >> can see the pot. >>
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>  it is this Toola Avidya (
  तूलाविद्या ) located in the Chaitanya
  > enclosed
  > >> by
  the pot which is neutralized by the Mental Vritti and not
  the Avidya
  > >> associated with the
  projection of the pot itself ( which is Adhyasa )
  > >> which
  >
  >> is the material cause of the pot. Thus there is
 no
  contradiction .
  > >>
  > >> It should however be clarified
  that the two Avidyas  are not entirely
  >
  >> different or independant of each other. Avidya is
  one only. But for
  > >> purposes of
  analysis they are given different names to clarify the
  > >> different roles played under
  different circumstances. There is only one
  > >> all
  > >>
  pervading Consciousness and only one Avidya associated
 with
  it. Wherever
  > >> Consciousness is
  considered Avidya also is to be automatically
  > construed.
  >
  >>
  > >> Regards
  > >>
  > >> On
  Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Venkatesh Murthy via
 Advaita-l
  <
  > >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
  wrote:
  > >>
  >
  >> > Namo Vidvadbhyaha
  >
  >> >
  > >> > I am having
  difficulty analysing one Vaadiraaja's argument in
  > >> > Nyayaratnavali. All the
  objects are covered by Ignorance before we see
  > >> > them. When I see a pot the
  Ignorance cover is lifted and then only I
  > >> > can see the pot. Some books
  are calling this 'Veil of Ignorance' But
  > >> > Advaitis will also say the
  pot is a Superimposition - Adhyaasa on
  >
  >> > Brahman. But this Adhyaasa is also Ignorance
  only. If the earlier
  > >> >
  covering Ignorance is destroyed when I see the pot how can
  the second
  > >> > Ignorance -
  Adhyaasa arise? If the first covering Ignorance is
  > >> > destroyed the second
  Ignorance must not arise. Because Vaadiraaja says
  > >> > Advaitis say the Avaraka
  Ajnana - covering Ajnana is the Material
  > >> > Cause of the Adhyaasa. Then
  if this is true I must not see the pot.
  >
  >> >
  > >> > There is a
  contradiction in Vaadiraaja's opinion. I have to solve
  this
  > >> > contradiction.
  > >> >
  >
  >> > I have a firm belief there is a solution in
  Advaita but I dont know
  > >> >
  it. Kindly inform me if there is a solution. I know some
  people
  > >> > knowing the
  solution but they are not available to answer my question
  > >> > now.
  >
  >> >
  > >> >
  > >> > --
  >
  >> > Regards
  > >> >
  > >> > -Venkatesh
  > >> >
  _______________________________________________
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  > Regards
  >
  > -Venkatesh
  >
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