[Advaita-l] Difficulty in Ignorance Analysis

[Bhaskar YR]

But the words मूलाविद्या and तूलाविद्या are not found in Sankara Prasthana Traya Bhashyas. May be they were explained by later Advaitis.

praNAms 
Hare Krishna

Not meant for any debate.  Just sharing my thoughts after reading the above sentence.  Yes, there is no mention of jeevAshrita tulAvidyA and brahmAshrita mUlAvidyA in shankara's prasthAna traya works.  And the ignorance which has produced the indefinable 'snake' in the rope is called tUlAvidyA in vyAkhyAnakAra's works and obviously they say it is something different from brahmAshrita mUlAvidyA.  If this mUlAvidyA is quite different and it has the locus in brahman itself then to get rid of this mUlAvidyA, first jeeva has to get rid of his / her individual tUlAvidyA and then he should concentrate on eradication of mUlAvidyA.  But this mUlAvidyA has the Ashraya of brahman itself, so for the eradication of this brahmAshrita mUlAvidyA, jeeva has to first become brahman and then try to do the sAdhana which helps him to achieve it.  Moreover as per vyAkhyAnakAra-s, mUlAvidyA is anirvachaneeya, anAdi without any AkAra, amsha or avasthA but at the same time they are telling mUlAvidyA's part (amsha) is tUlAvidyA and both (mUla & tUlAvidyA) will get removed by the aid of Atma vidyA simultaneously.  If that is the case, what is the need of this bifurcation in avidyA and attributing one avidyA to brahman and another avidyA to jeeva??  After the effacement of tUlAvidyA what would be the status of jeeva?? Is he continue to identify himself with BMI due to mUlAvidyA though there is absence of rUlAvidyA??  What is the fruit (phala) of eradication of tUlAvidyA ?? how this is different from phala of mUlAvidyA vinAshaM??  Like this lot of questions arises in one's mind and unfortunately we donot have any source in prasthAna trayi bhAshya to get these doubts clarified.  

Anyway kindly don’t think I am starting a separate thread for debate  on mUlAvidyA and tUlAvidyA.  If what you heard already  about it is suffice to counter the dvaitins' objection, you can just skip this mail and goahead with your defense of advaita. 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar

-----Original Message-----
From: Advaita-l [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org] On Behalf Of Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 9:33 AM
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Difficulty in Ignorance Analysis

Namaste

Many thanks and Pranams to Sri Chandramouli and Sri Venkataraghavan for explaining so nicely and it is like Lord Siva Chandramouleeshwara and Lord Vishnu Venkataraghava both have cleared my doubt. A brief answer may be given.

Brahman is the Ashraya for मूलाविद्या the Root Ignorance. If we have to know Brahman the मूलाविद्या must be removed. Then we know Brahman.
Similarly any object like Pot is the Ashraya for तूलाविद्या the Modal Ignorance. If we have to know Pot the तूलाविद्या must be removed. When we see a Pot the तूलाविद्या  'Veil of Ignorance' gets destroyed by Pot Vrtti and we know the pot. But the Pot Adhyaasa is still there. It is not destroyed. Why? Because the मूलाविद्या is not destroyed. It is the Material Cause for the Adhyaasa of pot and all objects in the world.
Unless and until the मूलाविद्या is destroyed the Adhyaasa will not be destroyed. Sravana, Manana and Nididhyaasana are required to destroy मूलाविद्या.

But the words मूलाविद्या and तूलाविद्या are not found in Sankara Prasthana Traya Bhashyas. May be they were explained by later Advaitis.

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:
> Great explanation, Sri Chandramouli.
>
> To add to what you have said: Whenever an object such as pot, etc is 
> perceived, that object is pervaded by the perceiver's thought or vritti.
> This vritti pervasion (vyApti) is  the remover of the veil of 
> ignorance about the object. However, vritti being jadam, it cannot 
> illuminate the object, which in the case of most objects are jadam too 
> and therefore need illumination. The thing to note here is that vritti 
> vyApti can only remove the veil of ignorance over the object. Object 
> illumination requires something else.
>
> As we know, the mind reflects the sakshi chaitanyam or pure 
> consciousness, as chidAbhAsa, or reflected consciousness. The 
> chidAbhAsA is present whenever the mind is present, and as the mind 
> consists of thoughts, the chidAbhAsa is present automatically in every thought too.
>
> When thoughts pervade the object, the chidAbhAsa that is present in 
> the thought also automatically pervades the object. The chidAbhAsa, in 
> the context of knowledge, is also referred to as phalam. Therefore 
> chidAbhAsa pervasion or phala vyApti also automatically takes place 
> whenever perception takes place. The phalam, which is of the nature of 
> consciousness, when pervading the object is the thing which causes the 
> illumination of the object, and not vritti, which is jadam.
>
> To summarise, vritti vyApti removes ignorance and phala vyApti creates 
> illumination. Every knowledge of an object therefore requires three 
> things - the object, vritti vyApti and phala vyApti.
>
> Coming to Sri VAdirAja, his claim that the removal of the veil of 
> ignorance over the pot should also remove the pot adhyAsA does not 
> have merit. Vritti vyApti can only remove the ignorance of the object 
> over which the vritti is pervaded. So when perceiving a pot, vritti 
> vyApti on the pot can only remove ignorance of the pot, not a cow that 
> is not an object of perception at the time.
>
> Similarly, and this is the crucial bit of the argument, during the 
> perception of a pot, the avidya that covers the pot is the only thing 
> that is removed, and not the avidya that covers the upahita chaitanyam 
> that is enclosed by the pot.
>
> Therefore in the perception of a pot, pot adhyAsa is not removed - the 
> pot doesn't disappear. Then what about a gyAni who perceives Brahman everywhere?
> Does the pot disappear for him?
>
> In the case of a gyAni, the perception process is different. The gyAni 
> perceives both the pot and the upahita chaitanyam in the pot. The 
> latter perception is in the form of the thought - "I am the chaitanyam 
> that is enclosed in the pot too". This is the vritti vyApti that 
> removes the ignorance over the upahita chaitanyam or Brahman.
>
> ChidAbhAsa is present in this Brahman-knowledge-vritti too, however, 
> no illumination is required by chidAbhAsa for knowledge of Brahman - 
> because the Brahman is self effulgent. The very illumining power of 
> chidAbhAsa is sourced from Brahman. Therefore, phala vyApti has no 
> role in the knowledge of Brahman.
>
> To summarize, two vritti vyAptis take place for the gyAni - vritti 
> vyApti of the pot, and vritti vyApti of the upahita chaitanyam of the 
> pot.  Each of these vritti vyApti remove knowledge of the respective 
> items being pervaded by the vritti, viz., pot and upahita chaitanyam, or Brahman.
>
> As the phala vyApti of the pot takes place for a gyAni too, he has all 
> three things required for the knowledge of the pot - the object (pot), 
> vritti vyApti over the pot, and the phala vyApti over the pot.
>
> However, while a gyAni continues seeing the pot,  because the avidyA 
> AvaraNA over the upahita chaitanyam is removed by his mind's Brahman 
> knowlede vritti, he knows that the pot is simply mithya, and the 
> upahita chaitanyam that is enclosed in the mithya is himself, the only satyam.
>
> Sri Venkatesh Murthy - I hope this hasn't confused matters. Sorry for 
> the long mail.
>
> Regards,
> Venkatraghavan S
>
> On 10 Jun 2015 08:34, "H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l"
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Sri Venkatesh Murthy ji,
>>
>>
>>  At the location of the object, the Avidya associated with 
>> Consciousness appears as the object and hence is termed the material 
>> cause of the object.
>> This is Adhyasa. This object encloses the General Consciousness ( 
>> Samanya Chaitanya ) as well which then is termed Specific 
>> Consciousness ( Vishesha Chaitanya ) . This Vishesha Chaitanya itself 
>> is associated with Avidya also which is termed Toola Avidya ( 
>> तूलाविद्या ) . When you say
>>
>>
>>  << When I see a pot the Ignorance cover is lifted and then only I 
>> can see the pot. >>
>>
>>
>>  it is this Toola Avidya ( तूलाविद्या ) located in the Chaitanya 
>> enclosed by the pot which is neutralized by the Mental Vritti and not 
>> the Avidya associated with the projection of the pot itself ( which 
>> is Adhyasa ) which is the material cause of the pot. Thus there is no 
>> contradiction .
>>
>> It should however be clarified that the two Avidyas  are not entirely 
>> different or independant of each other. Avidya is one only. But for 
>> purposes of analysis they are given different names to clarify the 
>> different roles played under different circumstances. There is only 
>> one all pervading Consciousness and only one Avidya associated with 
>> it. Wherever Consciousness is considered Avidya also is to be 
>> automatically construed.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l < 
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Namo Vidvadbhyaha
>> >
>> > I am having difficulty analysing one Vaadiraaja's argument in 
>> > Nyayaratnavali. All the objects are covered by Ignorance before we 
>> > see them. When I see a pot the Ignorance cover is lifted and then 
>> > only I can see the pot. Some books are calling this 'Veil of 
>> > Ignorance' But Advaitis will also say the pot is a Superimposition 
>> > - Adhyaasa on Brahman. But this Adhyaasa is also Ignorance only. If 
>> > the earlier covering Ignorance is destroyed when I see the pot how 
>> > can the second Ignorance - Adhyaasa arise? If the first covering 
>> > Ignorance is destroyed the second Ignorance must not arise. Because 
>> > Vaadiraaja says Advaitis say the Avaraka Ajnana - covering Ajnana 
>> > is the Material Cause of the Adhyaasa. Then if this is true I must not see the pot.
>> >
>> > There is a contradiction in Vaadiraaja's opinion. I have to solve 
>> > this contradiction.
>> >
>> > I have a firm belief there is a solution in Advaita but I dont know 
>> > it. Kindly inform me if there is a solution. I know some people 
>> > knowing the solution but they are not available to answer my 
>> > question now.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > -Venkatesh
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--
Regards

-Venkatesh
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