[Advaita-l] Who Slept Very Well? - Part IV

[Nithin Sridhar]

I understand this. But a the same time it must be remembered that Shankar's
himself had directed sureshwaracharya  to write bhashya on brahmasutra that
he did when he took birth as vachaspati mishra.

The point I am trying to make is many people often allege that Shankar's
also differs from Gaudapada! I am sure SSS sincerely believed what he said
and I have no doubt about his scholarship. Personally though I would
disagree that later day people were completely wrong but I would accept the
possibility that his interpretation may be as valid as others.

I am interested to know what was the outcome of debate between SSS and
Sringeri acharyas.

- Nithin
On Feb 23, 2014 9:57 PM, "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> HS Chandramouli
>
> On a further consideration of the issue i thought my earlier statement
> needs to be corrected. No doubt as Sri Nitinji has mentioned there could be
> different ways of explaining the same concept in different ways depending
> upon the temperments of students.For example jiva itself is conceived in
> different ways as in avacheda vada/abhasa vada/pratibimba vada. Sri
> Sureswaracharya when asked about his preference in regard to this is
> reported to have said that any of them could be followed depending upon the
> sadhka's temperment as long as the same goal is reached. But in these cases
> none of them considered the other views as bhashya virudha. This then is
> the  issue in the current context. Sri SSS is very emphatic that all the
> other traditional schools of thought are Bhashya Virudha and goes so far as
> to state that they are against the very tenets and spirit of the bhashyas.
> Therein lies the problem.
>
> Regasrds
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 3:25 PM, H S Chandramouli
> <hschandramouli at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > I entirely agree with you Nitinji.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > chandramouli
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 8:45 PM, Nithin Sridhar <
> sridhar.nithin at gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you for elaborate reply. In my opinion at the outset all these
> >> differences appear only a difference of approach. Different acharyas
> have
> >> explained same concept in different way according to temperaments of
> >> students! Hence at least as far as I am concerned these differences in
> >> details is of interest only to those who dive deep in tarka.
> >> -Nithin
> >> On Feb 22, 2014 4:08 PM, "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > HS CHANDRAMOULI
> >> >
> >> > Dear Sri Nitiji and Sri Ramesh Vemuriji,
> >> >
> >> > << I would also be interested to know the major points of dispute
> >> between
> >> > Sri
> >> > Sachidanandendra Saraswathi and the others. >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Based on the contents of the booklet moolavidya vimarshana, I have
> >> tried to
> >> > summarize the main issues of contention between the traditional (
> >> > vivarana/bhamati as applicable ) and Sri SSSjis views.
> >> >
> >> > 1. Issue  << Is bhavarupa moolavidya which is the  cause for samsara
> >> > consistent with Sri Bhagavatpada Sidhanta or not >> . According to
> >> > traditional views, bhavarupa moolavidya as  the root cause ( moola
> >> karana )
> >> > for all samsara is entirely consistent with sidhanta. But according to
> >> Sri
> >> > SSS , based on adhyasa bhashya , mutual adhyasa between atma and
> anatma
> >> is
> >> > called avidya and this is the root cause ( moola karana )  for all
> >> secular
> >> > and vedic vyavahara , and bringingin  moolavidya as the karana vastu
> >> even
> >> > for this avidya is contrary to the Bhashya.
> >> >
> >> > 2. Sushupti. According to traditional views ajnana which is the cause
> >> for
> >> > bandha is present in sushupti. But according to Sri SSS there is
> neither
> >> > avidya nor adhyasa  separate from the atman in sushupti.
> >> >
> >> > 3.  Traditional view considers moolavidya both as moola karana for
> >> samsara
> >> > ( as avidya ) as well as the seed  for Creation ( as avyakta or
> >> avyakruta
> >> > or maya ) . Sri SSS maitains that avidya is mithya jnana which is
> >> removed
> >> > by jnana ( as per adhyasa bhashya ) whereas maya is the seed  for
> avidya
> >> > kalpitha namarupa Creation ( as per BS 2-1-14 ) . Also in BS 1-4-3,
> >> since
> >> > Sri Bhagavatpada  has  interpreted avyakta  as maya on the one hand
> and
> >>  as
> >> > avidya on the other separately, the interpretation should be that
> >> avidya is
> >> > in the realm of jnana whereas maya is in the realm of object ( jneya )
> >> and
> >> > therefore the conclusion is avidya is the seed ( nimitta ) for samsara
> >> > while avyakta is the seed ( upadana karana ) for Creation.So the two,
> >> > avidya and avyakta , should not be clubbed together as a single entity
> >> > moolavidya.
> >> >
> >> > There are other differences also in specific portions of the Bhashya.
> >> But
> >> > as per my understanding they all in one way or the other traceable to
> >> these
> >> > fundamental issues. Sri SSS has advanced several Bhashya/shruti vakyas
> >> in
> >> > support of his contention. In fact he goes so far as to state that the
> >> > traditional views ( both vivarana and bhamati ) have not even
> understood
> >> > the spirit of the Bhagavatpada Sidhanta at all and have gone against
> >> it. He
> >> > also maintains that with those views many arguments advanced by the
> >> > dvaitins ( both vishishtadvaita and Madhwa sidhanta ) cannot be
> negated.
> >> >
> >> > I have tried to present the issues to the best of my ability. As Sri
> >> > Bhaskarji has mentioned, for a serious study of the views of Sri SSS
> one
> >> > needs to refer to the works of Sri SSS mentioned by him in his post. I
> >> hope
> >> > this will be of some value to those who just want to understand the
> >> basic
> >> > issues involved.
> >> >
> >> > Regards
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 9:45 AM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
> >> > kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Continuation as Part IV
> >> > > -------------------------------------
> >> > >
> >> > > Deep-Sleep State:
> >> > >
> >> > > When we go to deep sleep state, we start withdrawing each of the
> >> koshas,
> >> > > one by one, with the desire or thought of going to deep-sleep state.
> >> 'I
> >> > > want to sleep' thought forms contents of the vijnana maya kosha or
> the
> >> > > intellect, when it goes to sleep or when it goes into an
> unmanifested
> >> > > state.  In the process of sleeping, there is a withdrawal of each of
> >> the
> >> > > grosser koshas into the subtler one - that annamya kosha to
> pranamaya
> >> > > kosha, pranamaya to manomaya, manomaya to vijnaana maya.  At the
> time
> >> of
> >> > > sleep, the vijnaana maya or the intellectual sheath becomes
> >> unmanifested
> >> > > state with all the koshas as part of its ingredients, but in
> >> > > undifferentiated form. That unmanifested state of intellectual
> sheath
> >> > with
> >> > > all its constituent koshas is now called anandamaya kosha, since
> >> there is
> >> > > absence of any discriminative thoughts, and associated
> relationships,
> >> > other
> >> > > than the homogeneous thought of ignorance or avidya. This is
> referred
> >> to
> >> > as
> >> > > avidya vRitti.  It is
> >> > >  in a sense an experience involving the knowledge of the absence of
> >> > > anything and everything.  Hence Mandukya says - na kinchana kaamam
> >> > > kaamayata - there is absence of desire for any object since there is
> >> no
> >> > > perception or recognition of any particular object of any kind in
> that
> >> > > unmanifested state.
> >> > >
> >> > > Along with the ignorance, there is an experience of happiness as the
> >> > > absence of any duality that involves all relationships. In essence,
> >> all
> >> > > human suffering comes from the notional relationships and ownerships
> >> that
> >> > > arise due to individual raaga and dweshaas or likes and dislikes.
> >> Hence
> >> > it
> >> > > is happiness born out of absence of suffering.  It is still a
> >> reflected
> >> > > happiness or consciousness since reflection by the homogenous
> >> ignorance
> >> > > thought or avidyaa vRitti. Tai. Up classifies the degree of
> happiness
> >> in
> >> > > the anandamaya kosha in terms of moda, pramoda, etc. The very
> >> > > classification implies it is not an absolute happiness but only
> >> reflected
> >> > > happiness as in waking and dream states.
> >> > >
> >> > > Hence it is ananda mayam, and it is kosha since there is inherent
> >> > > identification with the Vijnaanamaya now in potential or
> unmanifested
> >> > > form.  It is now in its pure existential form since there is no
> >> apparent
> >> > > duality or plurality.  Pure existence is nothing but Brahman. Hence,
> >> one
> >> > > can say that it is Brahman in the form of ananda maya kosha exists
> in
> >> the
> >> > > deep sleep state. Identification with the vijnana maya kosha is now
> >> > shifted
> >> > > to the identification with anandamaya kosha.  The experience of 'I
> >> slept
> >> > > well' involves both the existence (sat aspect of Brahman) as well as
> >> the
> >> > > bliss or ananda aspect of Brahman.
> >> > >
> >> > > In essence, this sequence of withdrawal of grosser koshas to the
> finer
> >> > > ones up to the anandamaya kosha is called going into deep sleep
> state.
> >> > > Since there are no two thoughts to differentiate from the other, and
> >> > there
> >> > > is just an experience of a single homogenous thought of ignorance
> >> called
> >> > > avidya vRitti, there is no concept of space and time. Time arises
> as a
> >> > gap
> >> > > between two sequential thoughts and movement in time is space; and
> >> both
> >> > are
> >> > > absent in deep-sleep state.
> >> > >
> >> > > What is there in deep sleep state is only an undifferentiable
> >> homogeneous
> >> > > thought that started originally a thought as 'I want to sleep'. The
> >> > > knowledge also in aananda maya kosha, which is nothing but
> vijnanamaya
> >> > > kosha in potential form or unmanifested form, occurs also
> >> spontaneously
> >> > as
> >> > > the all-pervading consciousness or sAkshI illumines this anandamaya
> >> kosha
> >> > > with the avidyaa vRitti. Although we can say that aanandamya kosha
> >> acts
> >> > as
> >> > > a knower and the known is the absence of everything or avidya
> vRitti,
> >> it
> >> > is
> >> > > unlike the knowledge in the waking state where the knower and known
> >> > duality
> >> > > involves distinct pramANa or means of knowledge resulting in tripuTi
> >> or
> >> > > triad mentioned earlier. In the deep-sleep state the consciousness
> >> > > reflected in the anandamaya kosha as chidAbhAsa acts as the subject
> >> > knower
> >> > > and the thought of ignorance as avidya vRitti forms the object of
> >> > > knowledge.  Since avidyaa vRitti involves homogenious undifferented
> >> > > ignorance of everything,
> >> > >  the reflected consciousness only illumines this ignorance as object
> >> of
> >> > > knowledge. The knower is the enlivening ananda mayakosha which is
> >> nothing
> >> > > but vijnaanamaya kosha with all its components (other koshes) in
> >> > > undifferentiated potential form. Hence in deep sleep there are three
> >> > > factors, a) vijnaanamaya kosha in potential form as anandamaya
> kosha,
> >> b)
> >> > > the reflected consciousness, chidAbhAsa reflected in this anandamaya
> >> > kosha
> >> > > c) undifferented homogenious ignorance as vRitti.
> >> > >
> >> > > When one awakes from deep sleep state (due to pressure of vaasanaas)
> >> the
> >> > > unfolding of the koshas occur in reverse order with vijnaana maya
> >> kosha
> >> > > taking its manifested form, with unfolding of each of the koshas,
> >> first
> >> > the
> >> > > manomaya and then praana maya  and then annamaya koshas. The knower
> >> > -known
> >> > > dualily in the potential form is now unfolded where the knower is
> the
> >> > > vijnaana maya kosha and known is the homogeneous ignorance of
> >> everything.
> >> > > Hence when the mind (vijaanamyaka kosha) says I slept well implies
> >> that I
> >> > > was there in potential form and I did not know anything expressing
> >> both
> >> > > experiences one as my existence as I was there to sleep well, and
> the
> >> > other
> >> > > is my ignorance while I was in that state. I being referred to here
> is
> >> > > again the unholy combination of the pure consciousness with the
> >> > anandamaya
> >> > > kosha or unfolded vijnaanamaya kosha.  One can also say that
> >> ahankaara in
> >> > > the potential form slept very well since as we mentioned that
> >> ahankaara
> >> > is
> >> > >  identification of I am with this - this here being the anandamaya
> >> kosha.
> >> > > Thus, upahita chaitanya (RC or reflected consciousness) identifying
> >> with
> >> > > the upAdhi as ahankaara jiiva slept very well and did not know
> >> anything
> >> > in
> >> > > the deep-sleep state.  As we mentioned before, the pure
> all-pervading
> >> > > consciousness has nothing to do with waking, dreaming or
> deep-sleeping
> >> > > states. It is the witnessing consciousness that is every shining
> >> > principle
> >> > > without any duality whatsoever.  Hence even the deep-sleep state is
> >> also
> >> > > from vyavahaara point only, as declared by Mandukya in mantra 7 as
> >> > turIyam
> >> > > as na prajnaana ghanam.  Since the experience in deep-sleep state
> >> > involves
> >> > > absence of all dualities, it is an experience of non-duality but
> >> without
> >> > > any knowledge of the absolute truth of advaita.  Here I am
> >> > differentiating
> >> > > non-duality from the advaita and the reason is advaita knowledge
> >> involves
> >> > > knowledge of non-duality, in spite of apparent duality, whereas the
> in
> >> > the
> >> > >  deep-sleep state there is only the absence of duality and knowledge
> >> of
> >> > > the ignorance.  Thus advaitic understanding differs from just the
> >> > > experience of non-duality. This aspect is very important since many
> >> want
> >> > to
> >> > > experience non-duality as the goal of self-realization. What is
> >> required
> >> > is
> >> > > the knowledge of the absoluteness of the self that is aham
> brahmaasmi
> >> or
> >> > I
> >> > > am the infiniteness. That knowledge has to take place with the mind
> >> and
> >> > in
> >> > > the mind only. Hence, the advice of the scriptures is to approach a
> >> > teacher
> >> > > for this knowledge.
> >> > >
> >> > > Analysis of our deep sleep experience should provide us many aspects
> >> for
> >> > a
> >> > > keen Vedantic student.
> >> > >
> >> > > 1.    It is an advaitic experience without knowledge of the absolute
> >> > truth
> >> > > - indicating that self-realization does not involve an experience of
> >> > > non-duality by shunning or shutting of the mind, since we are
> >> > experiencing
> >> > > this all the time when we go to deep sleep state. No one gets up
> from
> >> > > deep-sleep with advaitic knowledge or with self-realization.
> >> > >
> >> > > 2.    Self-realization therefore involves clear understanding of my
> >> > > advaitic nature irrespective of the presence or absence of duality.
> >> That
> >> > > understanding comes only with the mind which is ready to learn via
> >> > > shravana, manana and nidhidhyaasana that scriptures prescribe. That
> is
> >> > > listening to the scriptures under a competent teacher who himself
> has
> >> > > learned this from his teacher, and reflecting on the teaching until
> >> there
> >> > > are no more doubts and contemplating on the teaching until one
> >> recognizes
> >> > > all the time I am that pure existent consciousness, one without a
> >> second.
> >> > >
> >> > > 3.    In the deep sleep state, jnaani sleeps as jnaani and ajnaani
> >> sleeps
> >> > > as ajnaani. This is because the mind that has the knowledge or
> >> ignorance
> >> > of
> >> > > one's true nature is folded with its knowledge to be in potential
> >> form.
> >> > > Hence jnaanam or ajnaanam of oneself is in potential form in the
> >> > anandamaya
> >> > > kosha.
> >> > >
> >> > > 4.    The knowledge including the self-knowledge occurs in or with
> the
> >> > > upahita chaitanya or reflected consciousness, reflected in the
> >> vijnaamaya
> >> > > kosha. Hence viveka or discriminative intellect becomes important
> tool
> >> > > along with shraddhaa or faith in the teaching as emphasized by Lord
> >> > Krishna
> >> > > as - shraddhaavan labhate jnaanam.
> >> > >
> >> > > 5.  There are several misconceptions about deep-sleep state in the
> >> > > literature. See for example the discussion between Shree Ananda wood
> >> and
> >> > > Shree Dennis relating to Shree Atmanandaji account of deep-sleep
> >> state.
> >> > The
> >> > > discussion can be found at
> >> > > http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/atmananda/atmananda4f.htm
> >> > > It appears from the discussion deep-sleep is being described
> somewhat
> >> > > similar to turIyam while in fact in the description of turIyam the
> >> > > scripture negates the deep-sleep state as part of mithyaa only. The
> >> > > confusion can be due to the misunderstanding that pure consciousness
> >> > > involves objectless awareness as the description indicates. Even if
> >> one
> >> > > takes that operational definition, the deep sleep state is not
> >> objectless
> >> > > awareness. In deep sleep state we are aware of the homogeneous
> >> ignorance
> >> > > just as stated above with example of pitch dark room where we are
> >> aware
> >> > of
> >> > > objectless-ness.  In both pitch dark room and in deep sleep state we
> >> have
> >> > > an object for awareness; darkness in the pitch dark room and
> >> ignorance in
> >> > > the deep-sleep state. For that reason only we can say - I do not see
> >> or
> >> > > know anything there in the pitch dark room or in the deep-sleep
> state.
> >> > > Absence of non-existence of an object or objects is knowledge stated
> >> as
> >> > > anupalabdi pramANa. As a final
> >> > >  note again - self-realization does not necessarily involves
> >> objectless
> >> > > awareness but recognition that I am awareness with or without
> >> thoughts or
> >> > > vRittis or object-thoughts. Hence, advaitic knowledge involves
> >> > recognition
> >> > > that I am pure existence-consciousness-limitless with or without the
> >> > world
> >> > > of plurality present since the plurality that is present is only
> >> mithyaa
> >> > > and therefore cannot disturb my advaitic state.
> >> > >
> >> > > Hari Om!
> >> > > Sadananda
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
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