[Advaita-l] Reply to Sri Vidyamanya Tirtha's observations

V Subrahmanian v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
Tue Nov 26 23:15:10 CST 2013
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The fundamental principle is crisply enunciated in the Vivekachudamani:

chittasya shuddhaye karma, na tu vastUpalabdhaye

vastu-siddhir-vichAreNa, na kinchitkarmakOTibhiH 11

karma is meant for chittashuddhi and not for the knowledge of Atman.  This,
the knowledge of Atman, is accomplished by vichAra (jijnAsA - shravaNa,
manana and nididhyAsana) and never by any amount of karma.

And the Upanishad too says this:

na karmaNA na prajayA dhanEna....

The Mundakopanishat says: nAsti akRtaH kRtena.  That which is not a product
of karma, the Atman, is never attained by karma.

The BG 6th ch. verse:

ArurukShoH muneH yogam karma kAraNamuchyate
yogArUDhasya tasyaiva shamaH kAraNamuchyate

For the one aiming at attaining to yoga (that is conducive for
Self-realizattion through nididhyAsanam) (stage 1) karma is the means.  For
this very aspirant, once he has attained to the state of yoga (stage 2), it
is freedom from/giving up of actions that is the means (to consummate the
process of nididhyAsanam) in Self-realization.

In the svArAjyasiddhi 1.10 it is even more emphatically stated:

..while the distinction is so clearly available between the adhikArin for
karma and the one for jnAna, to say that both karma and jnana constitute
the means for liberation amounts to asking a man who is thirsty to consume
fire and water  for quenching the thirst.



regards
subrahmanian.v


On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 7:54 AM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Vidyaji - PraNAms
>
> Very clear elucidation of the Advaita Principles. Jnaana-karma samuchchaya
> vaada forms a major purpaksha in Shankara Bhaashya, clearly addressed in
> his introduction to Karmayoga chapter in Geeta.
>
> You patience in addressing the issues is very much appreciated.
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Tue, 11/26/13, Vidyasankar Sundaresan <svidyasankar at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>  1. No one, not a single one, among traditional Vedantins
>  says that Sankara bhagavatpAda is "against"
>  yajna-s. I will leave aside "modern Vedantins" here, as it
>  is not clear to me which group(s) you mean by
>  this term.
>
>
>
>  2. However, every truly traditional Vedantin has understood
>  that in the final analysis, as per Sankara
>  bhagavatpAda's teaching, moksha is through jnAna alone. And
>  jnAna, pure jnAna, stands apart from
>  any and all kind of karmA. "jnAnAd eva tu kaivalyam" is an
>  ancient aphorism.
>
>
>
>  3. Every truly traditional Vedantin has also understood that
>  as per Sankara bhagavatpAda's teaching,
>  performance of yajna-dAnAdi karmA-s are for citta Suddhi.
>
>
>
>  4. No truly traditional Vedantin can agree that jnAna is
>  always and necessarily automatic with citta
>  Suddhi. There is such a thing as the need for sAdhana
>  towards jnAna after citta Suddhi is attained.
>  There is such a thing as the need for a guru/AcArya to
>  deliver that jnAna to the citta that is Suddha.
>  AcAryavaN purusho veda is a line from the chAndogyopanishat.
>  All the seekers in the praSna text are
>  quite advanced in citta Suddhi, but they approach a guru for
>  brahmajnAna and to learn the sAdhana
>  towards it. nArada was highly learned, and presumably
>  performed all the nitya karmA needed for years
>  on end, but still had to approach sanatkumAra. bhRgu had to
>  go to varuNa.
>
>
>
>  5. Most crucially, to properly understand Sankara
>  bhagavatpAda, it is not enough to keep talking of the
>  need of yajnAdi for citta Suddhi and then obfuscate that
>  with a supposed need for performing karmA
>  AFTER the rise of samyag-jnAna. Such confused thinking about
>  karmA and jnAna is the *only* aspect
>  that I have been criticizing in your previous posts. Please
>  go back and read through your posts, their
>  assumptions and my responses carefully. I have never claimed
>  that Sankara bhagavatpAda is against
>  yajna-s. Such meaningless and contentless statements are
>  outside the range of what I write, because I
>  think Sankara bhagavatpAda is never against anything in a
>  totally unqualified manner. But he is definitely
>  against a muddled interpretation of the vedAnta according to
>  which performance of karmA is necessary
>  to gain brahmajnAna after the rise of
>  upanishad-vAkya-janita-jnAna. If you say that a lot of
>  people have
>  heard "ahaM brahmAsmi," but they are not brahmajnAnIs, and
>  that such people need karmA, you are
>  partially right and partially wrong. Such people may not be
>  brahmajnAnIs, agreed, because they have
>  heard the words of the upanishad vAkya, but the jnAna
>  conveyed through that vAkya has not yet been
>  born in their minds. The remedy for such people is not the
>  performance of yet more karmA, but a slow
>  withdrawal from karmA, if not a radical break from all
>  karmA. Either way, the process has to go through
>  a state where karmA is renounced, either formally in the
>  traditional conception of vividishA saMnyAsa
>  or as a matter of course, no matter what ASrama they find
>  themselves in. Finally, when the jnAna "aham
>
>  akartA" has been realized, karmA itself is a total
>  impossibility. This is one of the crucial cornerstones of
>  what advaita vedAnta is all about. Till such time as such
>  jnAna arises, karmA has a very important place,
>  first in its diligent performance and then in its
>  renunciation. It has no place AFTER the rise of jnAna.
>
>
>
>  I hope the nature of the criticism against your stance is
>  clear. And I hope that the traditional view about
>  the place of yajna-s and karmA in the process of sAdhana is
>  also clear.
>
>
>
>  Vidyasankar
>
>
>  > Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:45:15 +0530
>  > From: vmurthy36 at gmail.com
>  > To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
>  > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Reply to Sri Vidyamanya
>  Tirtha's observations
>  >
>  > Namaste Vidyasankar
>  >
>  > There is a book in Google books - Mimansa and Advaita.
>  If you read the book
>  > you can see Kumarila and Mandana and Adi Sankara are
>  all saying Nitya Karma
>  > is for PapaKshaya and Citta Suddhi. Kumarila is
>  supporting Moksha also. He
>  > is saying no point in going to heaven and enjoying all
>  the time. When Citta
>  > Suddhi happens the Jnana is automatic because in Nitya
>  Karma Upanishad
>  > reading is also included. Adi Sankara is making this
>  statement in Br Up 4 -
>  > 4 - 22. When he reads Vedas and Upanishad daily with
>  Purified Mind the
>  > Upanishad Vakya Jnana will happen automatically.
>  >
>  > I am not saying Guru is not required. Guru will only
>  teach Upanishads but
>  > student without Citta Suddhi will not get Jnana. He has
>  to practice Nitya
>  > Karma including reading and meditating on Upanishads.
>  Mandana is saying
>  > both meditation and Yajnas will be required.
>  >
>  > All these years the olden Vedantists and modern
>  Vedantists have argued Adi
>  > Sankara is against Yajnas. But it is a lie. Adi Sankara
>  supported Yajnas if
>  > they are Nitya Karma.
>  >
>  >
>  > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Vidyasankar Sundaresan
>  <
>  > svidyasankar at hotmail.com>
>  wrote:
>  >
>  > >
>  > > > But a Gruhastha has every right to purify his
>  mind with Nitya Karmas like
>  > > > Sandhyavandana and many Yajnas. He can
>  practice Karma Yoga. By
>  > > Purification
>  > > > of mind he will come to the door step of Atma
>  Jnana. He can do Sravana,
>  > > > Manana and Nididhyasana of Upanishad Vakyas
>  and become Atma Jnani. He has
>  > > > used all the portions of the Veda like
>  Mantras, Brahmanas and Upanishads
>  > > to
>  > > > get Atma Jnana. Then he can take Vidvat
>  Sanyasa.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > So, what happened to your earlier stance that
>  yajnAdi karmA-s are required
>  > > for
>  > > realizing brahman AFTER the knowledge, ahaM
>  brahmAsmi, has already arisen?
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > And please note that vidvat saMnyAsa is not
>  something that is to be given
>  > > or
>  > > taken. It just is, as the natural state of
>  brahmanishThA. No karmA is
>  > > possible
>  > > or even necessary as a step toward brahman
>  realization for vidvat
>  > > saMnyAsin-s.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > > In Br Up 4-4-22 Adi Sankara is explaining the
>  path for Brahmana
>  > > Gruhasthas.
>  > > > They can get Atma Jnana easily by following
>  Karma Yoga itself. By
>  > > following
>  > > > Karma they can come almost full distance to
>  Moksha.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Whence this "almost full distance"? What is the
>  step involved in covering
>  > > that
>  > > last remaining gap? Read further and go to Br Up
>  4-4-23, where the text
>  > > says,
>  > > SAnto-dAnta-uparatas-titikshus-samAhitaH and read
>  the bhAshya thereon,
>  > > where Sankara bhagavatpAda introduces the word
>  saMnyAsa, highlighting the
>  > > importance he gives to this ASrama.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > That said, going from brahmacaryASrama directly to
>  saMnyAsa is a rarity.
>  > > The
>  > >
>  > > typical path that would apply to most people is
>  one of progressing through
>  > > the various ASrama-s, with saMnyAsa as the final
>  stage. Everything prior to
>  > > that is preparatory. After saMnyAsa, how can
>  yajnAdi karmA-s be possible,
>  > > whether as means to brahman realization or
>  otherwise? A gRhastha, who is
>  > > attached to the performance of karmA till the very
>  end, is not eligible for
>  > > saMnyAsa, either of the vividishA or the vidvat
>  kind. Which means he is not
>  > > a brahmajnAnI, as he is still subject to kartRtva
>  buddhi, one of the
>  > > effects
>  > > of avidyA.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > > The tragedy is most of the Vyakhyana Karas
>  have not understood the
>  > > > concessions Adi Sankara has given to Brahmana
>  Gruhasthas. They are all
>  > > > misunderstanding the importance of Karma and
>  saying silly things about
>  > > > Karma like Karma is useless for Brahma Jnana.
>  They are not realizing ALL
>  > > > PARTS of Veda are important for Atma Jnana.
>  Karma Kanda is not inferior
>  > > > and Upanishads are not superior. Both have a
>  role.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Which vyAkhyAna-kAras are you talking about here?
>  None of the traditional
>  > > authors has misunderstood the importance of karmA
>  for those who are not
>  > > ready for saMnyAsa. But at the end, there is an
>  important step of the
>  > > giving
>  > > up of all karmA, either through a formal
>  renunciation process or as a
>  > > natural
>  > > state of jnAna. At the end, jnAna stands apart
>  from karmA.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > The core concept of jnAna-karma-samuccaya vAda,
>  that karmA is needed for
>  > > realizing brahman after the rise of
>  upanishad-vAkyajanita jnAna, is
>  > > utterly and
>  > > completely rejected by Sankara. If you think that
>  those who talk about
>  > > this are
>  > > mistaken when they seem to thereby devalue karmA,
>  please go back to my
>  > > first
>  > > question to you in this response.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Best regards,
>  > >
>  > > Vidyasankar
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > _______________________________________________
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>  > >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --
>  > Regards
>  >
>  > -Venkatesh
>  > _______________________________________________
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