[Advaita-l] On rationality; was "Vedas are not apauresheya according to the Vedas ?"

[rajaramvenk at gmail.com]

These defects don't exist if apauresheyatva is established using anumana. That is what many acharyas have done. 
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-----Original Message-----
From: Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com>
Sender: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:40:26 
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] On rationality;
 was "Vedas are not apauresheya according to the Vedas ?"

praNAms
Hare Krishna

I am afraid you are not getting my point here. 

I think to prove veda-s are apaurusheya, you are depending on mainly two 
sources.  They are :

(a) Veda-s are aparusheya because veda-s themselves say so.

(b) Veda-s are aparusheya because some parusheya texts say so. 

Here (a) cannot be held valid as I explained in my previous mail. 

And (b) too cannot be the valid means for the group who are arguing that 
paurusheya grantha-s are not free from defects.  So, to prove veda-s 
apaurusheyatva you have two possible ways : 

(1) accept veda-s are apaurusheya because it is  an unconditional 
axiomatic statement floated by traditional Acharya-s, being a traditional 
follower you have to accept it without further questioning.

(2) accept that veda-s are apaurusheya because it has been said like that 
in some paurusheya grantha written by jeevan muktha Acharya(s), in whose 
words I have complete faith.

No.(2) is what you are using here mainly by quoting H.H. commentaries 
which is again a parusheya work.  Anyway, both these stands mainly based 
on faith and in No. (2) there is a further extended belief that though it 
is  paurusheya grantha, there will not be any defects/ fallacies with 
regard to whatever written there!!

As I said earlier, for the traditionally polished mind both these stands 
are acceptable but not so for the outsiders who are questioning our stance 
on veda-s apaurusheyatva.  If you say,  this aparusheyatva is not meant 
for outsiders for any debate then it is as good as saying 'apaurusheyatva' 
status of the veda-s is just a belief system existing within the circle of 
vaidhika dharma followers. 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar





From:   V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
To:     A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta 
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date:   01/24/2013 03:34 PM
Subject:        Re: [Advaita-l] On rationality; was "Vedas are not 
apauresheya according to the Vedas ?"
Sent by:        advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org



On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:

> praNAms
> Hare Krishna
> Likewise, a person can approach the veda-s too by thinking that it is a
> work of perfectionist or a thorough person (like rishi like veda vyAsa,
> shuka, ramaNa, shankara bhagavatpAda etc.), who documented/worded his
> experience


I think you have missed what the HH is saying and are proposing something
that the HH has questioned!!  How did that person attain such a
perfection?  What sAdhana he followed and who prescribed that sAdhana?  If
it is AptavAkya, how did that Apta become qualified to be so?  These are
the questions the HH asks and finally arrives at the apauruSheya veda to 
be
the source from which all this has to descend.  There will be no infinite
regress as you think.On the other hand there will be an end to this trail
at the apauruSheya veda stage.  No one can question further: 'how and from
whom did the Veda know?' for the Veda is not a person, puruSha.  This is
the only way the topic can be understood and appreciated.

And what is to be remembered in all this is that the Veda apauruSheyatva 
is
not intended to be an answer to nAstika-s.  It is meant for those who are
within the sampradaya but might get questions at some stage or the other.
It can come up at the stage of one's vedanta shravana stage. It might also
help those others outside the sampradaya who might find the argument
convincing enough to take to the teaching of the Vedanta. Many youngsters
of our own sampradaya who have not applied their minds to this can very
well ask questions on this and here the apauruSheyatva will be immensely
helpful.  And the rule: 'shrutyanugRhIta tarka' is applicable here too.

Also to be noted, in this very context, is that, the 'journey' that I
mentioned is not extraneous to the Bh.Gita; it can be charted within the
Gita itself:  We see that even the Lord, while giving out the teaching of
Brahman, acknowledges the authority of the Veda rather than His own:

yadakSharam vedavido vadanti vishanti yadyatayo vItarAgAH
yadicChanto brahmacharyam charanti tat te padam sangraheNa pravakShye
8.11.  which is reminiscent of the KathopaniShat mantra:

sarve vedA yatpadamAmananti....where even the Acharya Yama does not say 
the
teaching is his; he points to the authority of the Veda.  Again we see in
the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad: 'tam tu aupaniShadam pRcchAmi  where the
PuruSha that is sought to be known is not anyone's imagination (like a
novelist's character) but someone who is known in and through the
Upanishads alone.  See how impersonal all these luminaries, even the Lord,
are when it comes to acknowledging the authority of the Veda which itself
is no person.  And what is more, even the Upanishad itself acknowledges 
the
authority of the Upanishads!!

For the 'vedAntakRt vedavideva chAham' of the Bh.Gita 15th chapter 
Shankara
says: 'vedAntArthasampradAyakRt' [Bhagavan Krishna is saying that He is 
the
originator of the teaching sampradaya of the purport of the Vedaanta
(Upanishads)] thereby preventing anyone from thinking that the Lord is the
author of the Vedanta.

regards
subrahmanian.v
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