[Advaita-l] Ishwara Turiya?

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

If you say Ishwara has no name and form argument here is only about
what we have to call this thing. There is something outside name and
form. You are saying it is Ishwara but others are saying Nirguna
Brahma. You are saying the same thing. They are saying same thing.

If you are saying Ishwara can manifest names and forms it is only
Vyavaharika to help Upasakas. But he  is not really doing that.
Because in Turiya there is no Upasaka  or Upasya Devata or Upasana. Or
you can say they have become ONE.

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Rajaram Venkataramani
<rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> As far as I can see, calling saguna brahman apara is based on an incorrect
> position that Ishwara in advaita has names and forms. He is beyond names
> and forms. And manifests names and forms in the minds of upasaka through
> para maya, non-different from Him. You cannot negate Ishwara because He is
> jnanamaya.
>
> It is Hiranyagarbha that is called apara Brahman, which is to be negated
> through jnana.
>
> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:
>
>> The sharp difference that you draw between Nirguna Brahman and Saguna
>> Brahman is unsubstantiated.
>>
>> praNAms
>> Hare Krishna
>>
>> It is indeed explicitly insisted by shankara in sUtra bhAshya.  See for
>> example pUrvapaxi & vedAntin dialogue on para and apara brahman in 4th
>> adhyAya of sUtra  ( I can get you the exact reference tomorrow).  Here the
>> question pUrvapaxi puts is :  which is para and which is apara brahman??
>> shankara (vedAnti) answers, where brahman is taught by means of words like
>> ashtulaM, anaNu, ashareeraM etc. where shruti negates any specific
>> features such as nAma & rUpa is para brahman.  Where, on the other hand,
>> that same brahman is taught as qualified by some specific feature for the
>> purpose of meditation, for example manOmaya, bhArUpa, prANamaya etc. is
>> the apara brahman or lower brahman.  For this pUrva paxi counters, in that
>> case shruti teaching non-duality will be violated is it not??  for this
>> shankara's answer would put a full stop on any speculation on saguNatva of
>> brahman in paramArtha.  Here shankara clarifies, No, for this has been
>> obviated by stating that the form with attributes is due to the
>> conditioning adjunct of name and form created by 'avidyA'.
>>
>> Please note, according to advaita, para brahman is jneya brahma and it is
>> siddhAnta drushti and apra brahman is upAsya brahma meant for advaita
>> sAdhana in the form of upAsana & dhyAna.  That is the reason why one and
>> same brahman has been explained as both para & apara brahman.
>>
>> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>> bhaskar
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-- 
Regards

-Venkatesh