[Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti and Advaita?

[rajaramvenk at gmail.com]

Have you studied Madhusudana under a traditional scholar? What makes you think you know more than someone who has done that for 3- 5  decades especially when you can deal with the valid questions raised (e.g. Bhakti is an ultimate eternal, imperishable goal)?  

Dr. Sanjukta, 80+, taught me for 3 hours at a stretch and then I learnt that she had serious health issues. Please don't underestimate either the commitment or knowledge. 
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

-----Original Message-----
From: "Sivakumar,Kollam" <sivanr8010 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:14:04 
To: <rajaramvenk at gmail.com>; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti and Advaita?

Dear sir,
 Again there goes the thought that sitting at the feet of a scholar and
studying could get the mind set of an academician changed!They
approach a scholar with an already set mental frame which is practically
quite difficult to change.
There is a famous incident with a Zen Master.A professor approached a the
Master  to study Zen principles.The master came with a jug of tea and a cup
and asked the professor to fill it up till the Master say to stop.Professor
started filling but the Master did not say to stop even after the cup was
full to the brim.Then the professor stopped filling.The Master asked why he
stopped.The answer was he didn't know how to pour into a filled cup.
Then the Master said that is also the problem of Him as he also didn't know
how to pour into an already filled up mind!
Here is the significance of Indian traditional education which starts at
the age of seven.The mind set that is needed for the study of vedanta is
gradually developed and if the vasanas are ripe enough one can take the
path of renunciation and study Vedanta.If not take the path of grahasta and
strive to overcome the latent vasanas and enter into the path of
renunciation in a latter period of life. Then only he will be competent for
the study of Vedanta. Knowledge of Vedanta acquired in other ways
by incompetent aspirants can only be that of an "asampradaayavit", to put
in the words of Acharya, and has to be considered as that of an ignorant
one.
Fortunately majority are taking this path(!) and here lies the secret of
the saying of Lord that Jnana is 'guhyayhamam'.Here lies the root of many
problems posed by the academicians.Most of them are not real problems at
all as far as a competent aspirant is considered.Mere "sabdajalam" and are
of course 'chitta vibhrama karanam' and that is what is of interest to an
academician because the aim is dhana and not Jnana.These are the two ways
and the choice is of course that of us.
 Namste.
sivakumarr.


On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:01 PM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Sivakumar, I would like to avoid the gross mistake. Is there any
> traditional scholar who has cared to study Madhusudana Saraswati? Prof.
> Lance Nelson, Prof. Sanjukta, Prof. Mishra etc. spent a lifetime doing
> that. They have sat at the feet of traditional scholars and documented the
> unanswered questions.
>
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Sivakumar,Kollam" <sivanr8010 at gmail.com>
> Sender: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 06:01:39
> To: Sunil Bhattacharjya<sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>; A discussion
> group for Advaita Vedanta<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
>        <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti and
>        Advaita?
>
> It is a gross mistake to asses the traditional
> works by  norms of western academicians
> and unfortunately this is the task in which most
> of the present day academic scholars indulge in.This is because most of the
> works on Adwaita and bhakthi literature is concerned with the subjective
> aspect ie.self which cannot be assessed from an objective aspect which is
> the approach of the academicians.Lack of understanding of this  seems to be
> the root cause of most of  problem related to study of
> Adwaita and Bhakthi. Most interesting fact is that despite the caution and
> advise of our Acharyas time to time we again and again indulge in same
> mistake!
> sivakumarr.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
> sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Even in the modern times there is exmple of a bhaktivadi going the
> advaita
> > way. Initially Shri Ramakrishna Paramhansa was sceptical about Advaita
> and
> > later on he realised that his Ishta-devata (Mother Kali) herself was
> > advising him to get intiated to the Advaita way. May be similar thing
> > happened to Madhusoodana Saraswati.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Sunil KB
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: Rajaram Venkataramani <rajaramvenk at gmail.com>
> > To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 12:24 PM
> > Subject: [Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti and
> > Advaita?
> >
> > As per my understanding, Bhakti and Advaita are totally compatible even
> up
> > to and at the penultimate stage. This is because bhagavath bhakti, where
> > bhagavan is identified with the innermost self, is referred to in the
> > upanishads and bhakti rasas are known to the author of Harivamsa, which
> is
> > admitted to be quite ancient. Sankara Himself was aware of Bhagavatha
> > school and Harivamsa specifically. However, the popular conception is
> that
> > bhagavath bhakti is incompatible with Advaita. And due to the popularity
> of
> > bhakti movement, Madhusudana Saraswati had to reconcile bhakti and
> Advaita.
> > Prof. Lance Nelson, who did his thesis on Bhakti Rasayana feels that
> > Madhusudana Saraswati did not successfully reconcile bhakti and Advaita.
> > The following is from his abstract, which summarizes his case and would
> > like to know what the scholars on this list think.
> >
> > From the abstract of Prof. Lance Nelson's Ph. D. thesis, "Madhusudana
> > Saraswati (16th century), one of the greatest and most vigourous
> exponents
> > of post sankara advaita, was simultaniously, and somewhat paradoxically,
> a
> > great devotee of Krishna. He authored several works in which he sought to
> > give bhakti a more prominent place within Advaita, a system traditionally
> > regarded as hostile to devotional spirituality.
> >             The Bhaktirasayana (BR), the most important of these, is an
> > independent composition which attemps a theoretical integration of non -
> > duilist metaphysics and the ecstatic devotionalism of the Bhagavata
> Purana.
> > The work's main thesis, borrowed from the Vaishnava devotionalists, is
> that
> > Bhakti is the highest goal of life (paramapurusartha). To establish this
> in
> > the face of the orthodox Advaita doctrine that liberation alone is the
> > highest aim, Madusudhana argues
> > (1) that bhakti is God (bhagavat) appearing in the melted mind of the
> > devotee, (2) that since bhagavat is supreme bliss, so is bhakti, and (3)
> > that bhakti includes knowledge of the atman and is a more blissful
> > experience than moksha.
> >            While the arguement of the experiential superiority of bhakti
> in
> > the  state of jivanmukti ("liberation in life") is plausible, Madhusana
> > does not show, in Advaitic terms, how it can be experienced eternally
> after
> > death. Moreover, he fails to establish that bhagavat is ontologically
> equal
> > to Brahman, which makes it difficult to see how bhakti , as identified
> with
> > bhagavat, can be ontologically superior, or even equal to moksha. In
> short,
> > he does not present a convincing arguement for bhakti's being
> > paramapurusartha.
> >           In later works such as the Gudarthadipika and Advaitasiddhi,
> > Madhusana abondens the idea that bhakti is an independent spiritual path
> > and itself the parama-purusartha. The commonly accepted view that he was
> a
> > champion of the cause of bhakti who successfully intergrated devotion and
> > Advita cannot therefore be accepted without serious qualification".
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> *sivakumarr*
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-- 
*sivakumarr*