[Advaita-l] Accepting Possibility of Error in Sastras

[rajaramvenk at gmail.com]

Is your conclusion that as per the tradition shastras are true on all matters even if they are proved to be conclusively wrong by science? Some of the smrti shastras definitely thought that earth is fixed. This has been conclusively shown to be wrong by science. As an advaitin, are you expected to still hold the view that earth stands fixed on four elephants? Leave alone smrti. Even shruti differs on triplication vs. quintiplication. What do you accept as true?
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-----Original Message-----
From: V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
Sender: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:57:21 
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Accepting Possibility of Error in Sastras

On the 'traditional position' regarding the shruti with regarding to
pratyakshAdi is reflected by the Advaitic position that:  the pratyakShAdi
pramANa that operates/dominates in a person's life *prior" to the advent of
shruti in its *real and complete* form stands negated by the Veda pramANa.
This is held on the strength of the pUrvamImAmsA nyAya called 'apaccheda
nyAya' where it is held that the *later* pramANa negates the *earlier*
pramANa.

Accordingly everything that pratyakShAdi directs a person, including the
shruti that is an alluding, anuvAda, stands negated by the *ultimate*
Vedanta pramANa that holds the duality that the world is including the jiva
is false/mithyA, not absolutely real.  This aspect is discussed in the
Advaita siddhi and before that in the Bhamati and before even that in the
Brahmasiddhi.  Of course, all this has its firm basis in the Vedata itself
that is so beautifully captured by Shankaracharya in the adhyAsa bhAShyam.
Gaudapada too brings this idea in the kArikA-s.

When someone asked Ramana Maharshi whether the other worlds admitted in the
scriptures are real, he is said to have replied: if 'this' world is real,
then why not the 'other' worlds?



regards
subrahmanian.v

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Rajaram Venkataramani <
rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am not suggesting that we blindly reject shastras as untrue. When
> shastras contradict pratyaksha and anumana, we have to examine and accept
> whatever is true.  This is not my position but what I think is the correct
> traditional position. Please read my original post with quotes from
> Gaudapada, Sankara and Madhusudana. Sri Subrahmanian also independently
> posted on the concept of anuvada, the exact term used by Madhusudana.
>
> In fact, I was thinking that shastras should be the authority on unseen
> matters such as posthumous result of karma, jivEshwara bhEdA in vyavahara
> realm etc. But according to Madhusudana even that can be a mere reflection
> of human delusion.
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:57 AM, sriram <srirudra at vsnl.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear
> > Shruthi is shruthi.Its applicability is to spiritual life and not to
> > physical phenomenal  world outside.May be some examples in the shruthi
> > appear as erroneous in the light of some scientific discoveries.But as
> our
> > understanding is not as deep and our intellect is not as sharp there is a
> > chance of misinterpretation of shruthi vakyas.Even  in the example that
> > fire is cold if uttered by a shrurhi vakya is to be discarded is just an
> > illistration that logic or prathyaksha pramana is valid and not shruthi
> > vakya .But you should know that shruthi has not said like that
> > anywhere.Shruthi and smruthi vakyas are collection of pramanas and
> > observations in the days of yore.They will be valid if the same
> environment
> > continues.As this is not the case you have to take the shruthi vakya to
> its
> > abstract/subtle meaning and not to gross/apparent meaning.Shruthi says
> > Brahman was there alone.You may say what is the proof?But if you think
> > deeply you will come to understand by deductive reasoning that nothing
> > comesout of nothing.Brahman is the total intelligence,total material and
> > total consciousness. so to say.It divided itself to become many.You may
> ask
> > why it should do like that?Akamayatha says shruthi.It desired.Can you say
> > why it desired?Any conscious intelligent being can desire to do some
> > thing.It is not illogical.So if you contemplate the shruthi vakyas you
> will
> > understand the purport and a logical build up.Of course our brains are
> not
> > fully evolved to understand the shruthi.Like a dog will unable to
> > understand how an electric fan works though it has brain to accept the
> > command to switch it off.So shruthi and shastras are pramanam for
> leading a
> > meaningful life here and here after is my conviction.R.Krishnamoorthy.
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rajaram Venkataramani" <
> > rajaramvenk at gmail.com>
> >
> > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-**
> > vedanta.org <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 7:52 PM
> >
> > Subject: [Advaita-l] Accepting Possibility of Error in Sastras
> >
> >
> >  In many religions, the scriptures are considered inerrant. We also
> >> consider
> >> the sastras to be the authroity. There is a lot of logic given to
> >> establish
> >> why sabda is pramana. There are stories such as Kumarila Bhatta's
> >> where complete acceptance of the authority of the sastras is
> >> reinforced. However, we see that Madhusudana says in Siddanthabindu (v
> >> 79),
> >> "The scriptures may state something that is merely the outcome of
> >> delusion". Here he admits that sastras can be erroneous. Though the
> >> tradition accepts the vedic model for creation, we see that there is
> >> aontinues.
> >>
> >> recognition of a contradictions there that is to be resolved through
> >> reason. For example, Gaudapada says (I.23), "In the matter of being
> >> created, whether from the already existent or from the non-existent
> also,
> >> the Sruti is equal, that is supporting both views. What is associated
> with
> >> or fortified with logical reasoning holds not the other".  The
> importance
> >> of reasoning is also stressed by Madhusudana, "The creation of names and
> >> forms by Him who does the triplication in BSB 2.4.20 in only an
> >> explanatory
> >> statement and cannot nullify quintuplication which is established by
> >> reasoning".  Sankara himself says, forget where, "Even a thousand sruti
> >> statements cannot make fire cold." In his bhashyas, we often see him
> quote
> >> sruti and then the opponent makes a logical counter to sruti. Sankara
> does
> >> not dismiss off the opponent saying that there cannot be a logical
> >> opposition because already the point has been established using sruti.
> He
> >> defends his position using logic.
> >>
> >> Are there conditions in which sastras can be accepted as erroneous? I am
> >> not talking about a presumption of error in sastras without evidence.
> But
> >> when there is concrete evidence based on pratyaksha and anumana that
> shows
> >> that the sastras are not correct, what is the valid traditional
> response?
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