[Advaita-l] Apaurusheyatva of Veda

[Raghav Kumar]

>Shri Omkar ji said:

>Modern science has argued that the earth has an origin if we go >back about
4.6 billion years. Even >setting aside evolutionary >theory (which would
restrict the existence of 'humans' on earth >to within >the last 5-7 million
years), for any scripture to be >maintained as eternal, one would still need
to >invoke some >special supernatural way by which the scripture existed
prior to the existence of >humans, or prior to the existence of the earth,
>and how it originally got transmitted to human beings.

This is a moot point. Even while we may (and I would suggest ought to) hold
the Veda-mantra-s to have been in existence always (whether manifest or
not), we have to still accept that at some point in time, this first
transmission as mantra-darSana to a human vehicle took place - For example,
bhAShyakAra says (BSB 1.3.30) - º¨É®ÎxiÉ SÉ शौxÉEòÉnªÉ&--- ` ¨ÉधुSUôxn&
|ɦÉÊiÉʦÉ& @ñʹÉʦÉnɶÉiɪªÉÉä o¹]õÉ& ' <ÊiÉ * |ÉÊiÉ´ÉnÆù चैवमेव
EòÉhbर्षªÉÉnªÉ& º¨Éर्यxiÉ…(

(Saunaka and others mention that the RShis madhucchandas and others were the
seers of the mantras of the Rg-veda. Similarly, with regard to the parts of
the other Veda-s, different RShis are mentioned)

Under modern circumstances, it would be impossible for anyone to believe
that the earth always supported life since the kalpaadi; and as Omkarji
said, this has nothing to do with evolution etc.  The plain fact seems to be
that the *first* transmission from the "breath of Ishvara" to a human
vehicle is where the questions arise.  For example,

1.WHERE (in which loka) did the first transmission take place in this kalpa?
Presumably the Earth.

2.WHEN did the first transmission from brahmA ji to a human being take
place? Some TIME/DATE has to be necessarily postulated, in principle.

> Sri Vidyasankar ji wrote: Those who assign a historical age to the veda
texts do not quite subscribe to >the apaurusheyatva of the >veda.

An Astika could hold that the Vedic mantra-s are eternal and form the
masterplan for the whole Cosmic Order consisting of devata-s, loka-s etc (as
Brahma Sutra DevataadhikaraNaM makes clear) and this masterplan is a
constant in  every kalpa,  but the transmission of this plan to certain
special human beings, the RShi-s can be assigned a historical age which is
after the Earth was formed. This idea does not compromise the nityatvaM
(eternality) and apaurusheyatvaM (not-authored-ness) of the Veda, surely.
Since the Vedic master plan was already in effect through the devata-s etc.,
even before human life arose on Earth.

Also, we can observe Sankara bhagavatpAda indicating that
<ÊiɽɺÉ{É®ÉhɨÉÊ{É…..  |ÉiªÉIÉÉÊnù¨ÉڱɨÉÊ{É ºÉƦɴÉÊiÉ; ¦É´ÉÊiÉ
Áº¨ÉÉEò¨É|ÉiªÉIɨÉÊ{É ÊSÉ®iÉxÉÉxÉÉÆ |ÉiªÉIɨÉÂ; iÉlÉÉ SÉ ´ªÉɺÉÉnªÉÉä
दे´ÉÉÊnʦÉ& |ÉiªÉIÉÆ ´ªÉ´É½®xiÉÒÊiÉ º¨ÉªÉiÉä; ªÉºiÉÖ
¥ÉªÉÉiÉÂ---<nÉxÉÓiÉxÉÉxÉÉÊ¨É´É {ɴɹÉɨÉÊ{É xÉÉκiÉ दे´ÉÉÊnʦÉर्व्य´Éहर्तुं
ºÉɨÉर्थ्यʨÉÊiÉ, ºÉ VÉMÉuèùÊSÉjªÉÆ |ÉतिषेदेतÂ;

(It is quite plausible that direct perception was the basis for the
mantrArthavAda-s (the anecdotes regarding the various devata-s,  interacting
with them and interactions amongst them),  for things imperceptible to us
can be seen by immortals like VyAsa and others. Thus it is mentioned in the
SmRti-s that VyAsa and others (Rishis) deal directly with the celestials.)  The
context was to show that the devata-s have forms and can interact with
exalted human beings.  It would seem defensible to say that “Although the
Vedas deal with such topics as devata-s etc who are normally invisible,
still, in-principle, they can be objects of pratyakSha atleast for special
beings endowed with tapas etc.” As for the question, how did the RShis do
tapas before the Vedas were revealed, since the very notion of tapas
originates from the Vedas, this may well be accounted for by past samskAra-s
of these AdhikArika puruShas called the RShis. So there is no circularity in
positing them to be mantra-dRShTa-s through their tapas.

>Sri Vidyasankar ji wrote: At the same time, it should be remembered that in
the list of everything

>that was breathed out of brahman, the veda itself includes acknowledged
non-apaurusheya texts, e.g. >itihAsa-purANa, sUtra, vyAkhyAna, etc. Being
the breath of brahman does not make these other texts >apaurusheya. Being
the breath of

>brahman also does not make the veda texts not-apaurusheya



 In this context the word itihAsa and purANa “breathed out”  by Ishvara are
not the rAmayaNa etc , rather, they are those stories present In the Veda
mantras themselves like those of Urvashi and purUravas . if we go by Sri
Subrahmanian ji’s older post –

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2010-March/023935.html

Quoted from the old post: In the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 2.4.10 there is
the teaching pertaining to the ‘creation’ of the Veda-s by Brahman.  The
mantra reads thus:

स यथार्द्रैंधाग्नेरभ्याहितात् पृथग्धूमा विनिश्चरन्त्येवं वा अरेऽस्य महतो भूतस्य
निश्वसितमेतद्यदृग्वेदो यजुर्वेदः सामवेदोऽथर्वाङ्गिरस इतिहासः पुराणं विद्या
उपनिषदः श्लोकाः सूत्राण्यनुव्याख्यानानि व्याख्यानान्यस्यैवैतानि

निश्वसितानि ॥

//"As from a fire kindled with wet fuel various kinds of smoke  issue forth,

even so, my dear, the Rig—Veda, the Yajur-Veda,  the Sama-Veda, the

Atharvangirasa,  *history  (itihaasa),*  mythology (purANa), the arts

(vidyA), the Upanishads, verses  (slokas), aphorisms (sUtras), elucidations

(anuvyAkhyAnas) and  explanations (vyAkhyAnas) are like the breath of this

infinite  Reality. From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed

forth.//



Sri Shankaracharya, while commenting on this mantra, writes for the

word इतिहासः itihAsa of the Upanishad: ‘such as the dialogue, etc. between
UrvashI and PurUravas -   उर्वशी हाप्सरा.’ (Shatapatha brAhmaNa 11.4.4.1).



The Editor of this edition of the Bhashyam, Sri S.Subrahmanya Shastri, in

the foot notes writes:

इतिहासः पुराणम् इत्यादौ भाष्ये वेदगत-अर्थवादरूपाणि पुरावृत्तानि

ग्राह्याणीत्युक्तम् । भारतादीनामनादिवेदप्रतिपाद्यत्वासंभवात् ।



//By the terms ‘itihAsa and purANam’ of the mantra, the BhAshya intends to

say: those statements contained in the Veda-s, as having ‘occurred’ in the

ancient times are to be taken.  *****However, the texts of the MahAbhArata,
etc. cannot be regarded to be included by these Vedic terms as it would be

unreasonable to hold that they have their source in the Vedas. *****//







On a different note:

Shri Jaldhar Vyas ji said something interesting that -  "mImAMsa and vedAnta
are the application of pratyakSha and anumAna pramanas to alaukika
topics.  (See
brahma sUtra 4.4.20 for example.)"
Could he please clarify what he meant by the above ? Does he refer to the
dealings of VyAsa and others in saying that application of pratyakSha etc to
alaukika topics ?
 There is also the sUtra 1.3.28- "shabda iti cet na ataH prabhavAt
pratyakSha-anumAnAbhyAM".  The bhAshya however  seems to merely equate
pratyakSha with shruti and anumAna with smRti. But to say that it is
possible to apply pratyakSha to an alaukika topic is not clear.
Interestingly, as mentioned earlier in this post, bhAShyakAra says something
related to such an application of pratyakSha to an alaukika topic by Sri
vyAsa etc, as forming the basis for the mantrArthavAda-s. The mantra-s
themselves were of course a matter for ‘darSana’ by the RShi-s.



Om

Raghav
P.S. Any model proposed by the pUrva-mImAmsaka-s will surely have to
accommodate the fact that the earth could not support life earlier. We can
call upon shraddhA to do the rest of the job. But to ask for jettisoning
even such strong evidence such as the late origin for life on Earth  should
be avoided..

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