[Advaita-l] Apaurusheyatva of Vedas.

[Raghav Kumar]

Shri Omkar ji said:
>Modern science has argued that the earth has an origin if we go >back about
4.6 billion years. Even >setting aside evolutionary >theory (which would
restrict the existence of 'humans' on earth >to within >the last 5-7 million
years), for any scripture to be >maintained as eternal, one would still need
to >invoke some >special supernatural way by which the scripture existed
prior to the existence of >humans, or prior to the existence of the earth,
>and how it originally got transmitted to human beings.
This is a moot point. Even while we may (and I would suggest ought to) hold
the Veda-mantra-s to have been in existence always (whether manifest or
not), we have to still accept that at some point in time, this first
transmission as mantra-darSana to a human vehicle took place - For example,
bhAShyakAra says (BSB 1.3.30) - º¨º¨É®ÎxiÉ SÉ शौxÉEòÉnªÉ&--- `
¨ÉधुSUôxn&|ÉभृÊiÉʦÉ&
@ñʹÉʦÉnÉर्शiɪªÉÉä दृ¹]õÉ& ' <ÊiÉ * |ÉÊiÉवेदं च एव´É ई¨Éä´É
EòÉhbर्षªÉÉदªÉ& º¨Éर्यन्ते (Saunaka and others mention that the RShis
madhucchandas and others were the seers of the mantras of the Rg-veda.
Similarly, with regard to the parts of the other Veda-s, different RShis are
mentioned)
Under modern circumstances, it would be impossible for anyone to believe
that the earth always supported life since the kalpaadi; and as Omkarji
said, this has nothing to do with evolution etc.  The plain fact seems to be
that the *first* transmission from the "breath of Ishvara" to a human
vehicle is where the questions arise.  For example,
1.WHERE (in which loka) did the first transmission take place in this kalpa?
Presumably the Earth.
2.WHEN did the first transmission from brahmA ji to a human being take
place? Some TIME/DATE has to be necessarily postulated, in principle.
> Sri Vidyasankar ji wrote: Those who assign a historical age to the veda
texts do not quite subscribe to >the apaurusheyatva of the >veda.

An modern Astika could hold that the Vedic mantra-s are eternal and form the
masterplan for the whole Cosmic Order consisting of devata-s, loka-s etc (as
Brahma Sutra DevataadhikaraNaM makes clear) and this masterplan is a
constant in  every kalpa,  **but** the transmission of this plan to certain
special human beings, the RShi-s can be assigned a historical age which is
after the Earth was formed. This idea does not compromise the nityatvaM
(eternality) and apaurusheyatvaM (not-authored-ness) of the Veda, surely.
Since the Vedic master plan was already in effect through the devata-s etc.,
even before human life arose on Earth.
Also, we can observe Sankara bhagavatpAda (BSB 1.3.33) indicating that

<ÊiɽɺÉ{É®ÉhɨÉÊ{É .... |ÉiªÉIÉÉÊnùमू±É¨ÉÊ{É ºÉƦɴÉÊiÉ; ¦É´ÉÊiÉ
Áº¨ÉÉEò¨É|ÉiªÉIɨÉÊ{É ÊSÉ®ÆiÉxÉÉxÉÉÆ |ÉiªÉIɨÉÂ; iÉlÉÉ SÉ ´ªÉɺÉÉnªÉÉä
nä´ÉÉÊnʦÉ& |ÉiªÉIÉÆ ´ªÉ´É½®xiÉÒÊiÉ º¨Éर्यते ; ªÉºiÉÖ
ब्रूªÉÉiÉÂ---<nÉxÉÓiÉxÉÉxÉÉÊ¨É´É पूर्वे¹ÉɨÉÊ{É xÉÉκiÉ
nä´ÉÉÊnʦÉव्य´Éहर्तुं ºÉɨÉर्थ्यʨÉÊiÉ,
(It is quite plausible that direct perception was the basis for the
mantrArthavAda-s (the anecdotes regarding the various devata-s,  interacting
with them and interactions amongst them),  for things imperceptible to us
can be seen by immortals like VyAsa and others. Thus it is mentioned in the
SmRti-s that VyAsa and others (Rishis) deal directly with the celestials.)
The context was to show that the devata-s have forms and can interact with
exalted human beings.  It would seem defensible to say that “Although the
Vedas deal with such topics as devata-s etc who are normally invisible,
still, in-principle, they can be objects of pratyakSha atleast for special
beings endowed with tapas etc.” As for the question, how did the RShis do
tapas before the Vedas were revealed, since the very notion of tapas
originates from the Vedas, this may well be accounted for by past samskAra-s
of these AdhikArika puruShas called the RShis. So there is no circularity in
positing them to be mantra-dRShTa-s through their tapas.
>Sri Vidyasankar ji wrote: At the same time, it should be remembered that in
the list of everything
>that was breathed out of brahman, the veda itself includes acknowledged
non-apaurusheya texts, e.g. >itihAsa-purANa, sUtra, vyAkhyAna, etc. Being
the breath of brahman does not make these other texts >apaurusheya. Being
the breath of
>brahman also does not make the veda texts not-apaurusheya

 In this context the word itihAsa and purANa “breathed out”  by Ishvara are
not the rAmayaNa etc , rather, they are those stories present In the Veda
mantras themselves like those of Urvashi and purUravas . if we go by Sri
Subrahmanian ji’s  post –
http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2010-March/023935.html

The Editor of this edition of the Bhashyam, Sri S.Subrahmanya Shastri, in
the foot notes writes:
इतिहासः पुराणम् इत्यादौ भाष्ये वेदगत-अर्थवादरूपाणि पुरावृत्तानि
ग्राह्याणीत्युक्तम् । भारतादीनामनादिवेदप्रतिपाद्यत्वासंभवात् ।

//By the terms ‘itihAsa and purANam’ of the mantra, the BhAshya intends to
say: those statements contained in the Veda-s, as having ‘occurred’ in the
ancient times are to be taken.  *****However, the texts of the MahAbhArata,
etc. cannot be regarded to be included by these Vedic terms as it would be
unreasonable to hold that they have their source in the Vedas. *****//

 Is there anything wrong in saying that "All the knowledge in the form of
the sound-syllables which were breathed out by Ishvara at the beginning of
creation, were all apaurusheya and were vedic mantra-s? Did Ishvara manifest
anything else at that time, as per the tradition?"

Om
Raghav
P.S. Any model proposed for explaining अपौरुषेयत्वं will surely have to
accommodate the fact that the earth could not support life earlier. We can
call upon shraddhA to do the rest of the job. But to ask for jettisoning
even such strong evidence such as the late origin for life on Earth  should
be avoided. (this does not mean that we have to accept Darwinian evolution
etc.,)

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