[Advaita-l] FW: Avidya, Jnanis and SSS' views

[Bhaskar YR]

sAshtAnga praNAms Sri vidya prabhuji
Hare Krishna

> Since you have reiterated twice that it is NOT jnAna daurbalya but ONLY 
> jnAna pravrutti daurbalya in a jnAni, I'd like to get clarification & 
more 
> details about this jnAna pravrutti daurbalya!! what exactly is this 
jnAna 
> pravrutti daurbalya?? without jnAna being affected, can pravrutti of 
that 
> jnAna on its own become durbala?? how can it be possible prabhuji I am 
not 
> able to understand!! For example, I have an intact jnAna of the rope & 
> I've realized that there is no snake there!! and my attitude and 
> activities (pravrutti) would be according to this jnAna 'correct jnAna' 
of 
> the rope only...I cannot runway from the scene or bringing the stick to 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

That is so for bahir-vishaya-jnAna. For AtmajnAna, there is no external
vishaya really, so the analogy goes only so far.

bhaskar :

Yes prabhuji, this is loukika vyavahAra example..But I think this analogy 
is quite appropriate since we are talking about pravrutti daurbalyaM of 
the jnAni which is IMO, again in the realm of vyavahAra for which jnAni is 
noway related.  Yes, for AtmajnAna there is no external vishaya (nor 
internal for that matter) but since we are 'wording' these scenarios with 
our bAla bAsha, we have to take some loukia examples for the better 
understanding of the 'vishaya' on hand.

 

> hit the snake without my 'jnAna' about the rope being affected is it not 

> prabhuji?? If the jnAni has the absolute non-dual samyak jnAna his 
> pravrutti also must be according to this jnAna only..if he starts doing 
> abnormal things then it means jnAna what he had earlier is deteriorating 

> and due to this jnAna effacement he is getting some vipareeta pratyaya-s 

> in his mind and due to which his pravrutti also getting affected...But 
> shankara categorically denies any vipareeta pratyaya in a jnAni in the 
> same upanishad's subsequent maNtra...So, with my limited knowledge, it 
is 
> hard for me to understand ONLY jnAna pravrutti daurbalya when jnAni's 
> jnAna if perfect & intact. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

So what DO you make of the bRhadAraNyaka bhAshya 1.4.7 then? With 
the categorical denial of viparIta pratyaya for the samyag-jnAnI, how 
can there be any daurbalya of jnAna? And if according to you, without
daurbalya of jnAna, how can there be daurbalya of jnAna-pravRtti?

bhaskar :

Yes prabhuji, these are the questions rather doubts for which I want your 
detailed clarification prabhuji.  The statement of yours i.e. 'jnAna 
pravrutti daurbalyaM (not jnAna perse) in the perfect jnAni' is something 
does not sinking in my mind meaningfully prabhuji. 

 Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Again, it seems to me that you think Sankara is contradicting himself
or at least being very ambiguous/unclear about it all. 

bhaskar :

It is neither way..instead I am seeking your clarification about jnAna 
pravrutti daurbalyaM in a jnAni which shankara said while jnAna remain 
undisturbed (which yourgoodself interpreting!!)

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

The same author is talking of jnAna-pravRtti-daurbalya as compared to 
prArabdha karma,
and then recommending tyAga-vairAgyAdi sAdhana after the rise of
samyag-jnAna, while also denying the viparIta pratyaya-s for the jnAnI.

bhaskar :

AFA my limited knowledge goes, shankara recommends jnAna sAdhana-s for a 
mumukshu and jnAni does not have to do anything after the dawn of samyak 
jnAna...Because for a samyak jnAni there is no dehAtma buddhi, and there 
is no notions of ahaMkAra & mamakAra...For those who have this limited 
buddhi these sAdhana-s required & prescribed...But for a jnAni who is 
established himself in brahma jnAna & who is brahman himself and who is 
invariably always in brahma bhAva cannot/will not entertain the notion of 
individuality & look & follow the sAdhana-s to avoid jnAna pravrutti 
daurbalya..But then how come shankara himself talking about jnAna 
pravrutti daurbalyaM while denying the vipareeta pratyaya in the jnAni?? 
This is where exactly I am not able to come to your line of thinking.  If 
you ask my take on this I think Sri subhanu saxena prabhuji has 
effectively resolved this puzzle without disturbing the jnAni's absolute 
status. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :
 

jnAna-pravRtti happens in the same locus where Atma-vijnAna-smRti-
saMtati takes place. 

bhaskar :

prabhuji kindly pardon me for asking this question once again : what 
exactly is this jnAna pravrutti in a samyak jnAni??  does not pravrutti 
implies an activity prabhuji??  can this activity happens on its own & 
gets the weakness gradually without being influenced by its respective 
jnAna??  Kindly clarify.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

The bRhadAraNyaka bhAshya 1.4.7 makes it all very clear, so long as you 
are prepared to let go of your preconceived
notions of what it is that Sankara is actually saying about this. If you 
think about where is it that the jnAna-pravRtti takes place and the 
Atma-vijnAna-smRti-saMtati takes place, or for that matter, any kind
of pratyaya appears, viparIta or otherwise, then everything is clear.

bhaskar :

If you say this locus is mind...then we have to conclude that this samyak 
jnAna what we are talking here is mere intellectual understanding & this 
Atma jnAna is also one of other jnAna-s (like memorizing the veda 
maNtra-s, or SAP transactional quodes in accounting system!!)  in the 
different compartments of mind!!  In that case, this jnAna definitely 
wares out due to vayOdharma & discontinuity in the utilization of that 
jnAna!!  But I dont think you are saying this absolute jnAna is like that 
objective knowledge.  In fact, as your goodself know, here 'gaining' Atma 
jnAna is NOT getting something new, it is only realizing that we are 
always jnAna svarUpa...this avidyA nivrutti (not jnAna 'prApti' perse) is 
what is called Atma jnAna...avidyAbhramApOhArthatvAt, na hi vastutaH 
muktAmuktatva visheshOsti, AtmanaH nitya ekatva rUpatvAt...kimtu 
tadvishaya avidyA apOhyate shAstrOpadesha janita vijnAnena says shankara 
in bruhad bhAshya.  So, what we are talking here is NOT newly achieved 
jnAna which is subject to wear & tear it is nothing but realization of 
what is already there!! (bhUta vishaya)...Under these circumstances it is 
hard for me to believe prArabdha karma's influence on jnAna 
pravrutti...Kindly tell me whether prarabdha karma  is the cause for mere 
continuation of the jnAni's body or can it influence or hold sway on the 
jnAni's pravrutti also even AFTER samyak jnAna ??


prabhuji, its time up for me at office prabhuji, I've to leave...I shall 
share my thoughts on the remaining portion of your mail (especially the 
term nirvikalpa samAdhi)if possible tomorrow.  Kindly permit me prabhuji.

Your humble servant
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar