[Advaita-l] Two types of Atma jnAni-s &their approachtoreallife situation

[Bhaskar YR]

sAshtAnga praNAms Sri Vidya prabhuji
Hare Krishna


Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Not so. The mere arising of a mental state does not mean that s/he would
give in to them. 

bhaskar :

what better justification can we give for arising of wicked thoughts like 
kAma/ krOdha in the mental state of the jnAni then prabhuji??  Here mere 
arising of kAma / krOdha is the result of attachment to sense objects 
(saMgAt saMjAyate kAmaH is the words of geetAchArya).  Kindly note I am 
not talking about 'nAsha' here I am trying to explain the 'cause' of kAma 
/ krOdha in the mental state!!  Since you yourself agreed that there is 
kAma krOdha in jnAni & there is 'interval' between arising & subsiding it 
in the jnAni, I've taken this BG verse as the reference to show that 
'through sense attachment to the objects ONLY wicked thoughts like kAma / 
krOdha can arise. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

IF he engages in attachment to sense objects, then there is nASa. 

bhaskar :

No prabhuji, IMO, the 'nASa' has been said here as the ultimate 
destruction stage of the jeeva...Since you are talking about 'interval' 
between arising of kAma/krOdha & practical implications of the same, there 
is possibility that jnAni can survive from this 'nAsha' through 'quality 
control' of these wicked thoughts!!  So, we cannot directly talk about 
nAsha here...But we can definitely ascribe attachment to the sense 
objects, because this is the main cause for the origination of kAma & 
krOdha and jnAni is also among others who gets these thoughts in the 
mental state. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Such a person does not have samyag-jnAna. 

bhaskar :

IMHO, the person who is getting kAma krOdha & taking time to subside it is 
also NOT a samyag-jnAni...While describing samyak jnAni shankara says : sa 
cha bAhya lOkO nAstyasmAkaM 'Atmavyatiriktaha'! 'sarvaM' hi asmAkaM 
AtmabhUtameva sarvasya cha vayaM AtmabhUtAH...for this type of 'samyag 
darshi' / samyag jnAni we are telling there exist kAma & krOdha in a 
mental state & there would be a 'interval' between kAma/krOdha tapta 
mental state and sinking of the same in the jnAni...

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

However, for a jnAnI, even if a momentary mental state arises, s/he knows 
better and s/he does not
develop attachment to it. 

bhaskar :

It is still unclear for me how can a jnAni gets wicked thoughts like kAma 
/ krOdha without satyatva buddhi in external objects & without attachment 
to it ATLEAST MOMENTARILY!!??...Prabhuji, do you mean to say there arises 
kAma krOdha in the jnAni's mind without any external stimulus??  Without 
seeing nAnAtva, without taking it 'real' how can a jnAni's mind would get 
the thoughts like kAma & krOdha which are rajOguNa & tamOguNa pradhAna?? 
OTOH, shankara never tired to says Once avidyA is eradicated without any 
trace in a saMyag jnAni there cannot to even an iota of nAnAtva in a 
samyag jnAni.   avidyAyA nivruttatvAt iha brahmaNi nAnA nAsti kiMchana 
'aNumAtramapi' clearly asserts shankara. Elsewhere shankara gives 
visheshaNa 'vAlAgramapi' (not even tip of the hair!!). 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

That is the biggest difference. You fail to distinguish
between the fact that different citta-vRtti-s may arise and the fact that
the jnAnI knows how to withdraw from these vRtti-s. 

bhaskar :

There is lot of difference between in saying for a jnAni there is kAma 
krOdha & subsequently he knows how to withdram himself from it & there is 
a jnAni who not at all get affected himself and his bhAva is 'sarvAtma 
bhAva'...duhkeshu anudvigna manaH...here geetAchArya talks about anudvigna 
of mana, he does not say, jnAni would 'first' get 'udvignatea' & 'then' 
controls it through withdrawing himself from it!!

Sri vidya prabhuji :

Enough said. You keep raising strawman arguments about what the jnAnI
is and does. I don't think you are really sorry to be fussy, because you 
seem
to delight in ascribing positions to others that they don't hold and you 
seem
to want to deliberately misunderstand what is being said. 

bhaskar :

Thanks for all your personal compliments on me prabhuji.  All these days I 
was thinking only your goodself & Sri vyas prabhuji have understood me 
very well!!  But after hearing your personal comments on me, I think I am 
failed to live upto your expectation prabhuji. Kindly pardon me, I did not 
know that you could see the hypocrisy in my sincere apologies also!!  If 
you are of the strong opinion that my intention here is just to 
deliberately understanding others' view points and I am getting fun by 
unduly ascribing positions to others, kindly dont waste your precious time 
to address those strawman arguments prabhuji. I donot want to see my 
guruji wasting his time with this 'useless' shishya & addressing his 
malicious intentions.  Again sorry ( really I mean it prabhuji!!) for 
troubling you all these days with my mean mentality.  You can just ignore 
my above 'socalled' clarification of my stand also as some useless & 
monotonous insane thoughts...

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Please get back to the basic questions that I raised a few days ago and 
then I will discuss more.

bhaskar :

Definitely I would do it prabhuji, but not for wasting your precious time 
in replying those deliberate misunderstanding of mine but that would be 
only for my own self-satisfaction...you may label it as 'bhaskar's own 
delusions on shankara siddhAnta'...

Your humble servant
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar