[Advaita-l] Two types of Atma jnAni-s & their approach to real life situation

[Bhaskar YR]

sAshtAnga praNAms Sri Vidya prabhuji
Hare Krishna

Kindly pardon me for my intrusion in the discussion.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

In my view, the key lies in recognizing where the kAma and krodha lie or
arise and who is worried about correcting it. 

bhaskar :

According to the definition provided by Sri Subbu prabhuji, it is the 
second type of jnAni who is having the kAma krOdha mentally and he is 
striving to 'correct it' and elevate himself to 'first' category of jnAni.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

There is nothing that says kAma and krodha will never arise after the rise 
of samyag-jnAna. 

bhaskar :

Interesting & very strange prabhuji...can a jnAni get kAma & krOdha  being 
influenced by the external stimulus?? Without entertaining duality & 
satyatva buddhi in it, how can a samyag jnAni get the bhAva of kAma & 
krOdha??  please explain. And if you dont mind, kindly provide me the 
bhAshya or shAstra reference to the above conclusion of yours.  on the 
other hand, geetAchArya says kAma krOdha viyuktAnAm yateenAm yatachetasaM, 
abhitO brahmanirvANaM vartate vididAtmanAM...tatra kO mOhaH kaH shOkaH 
ekatvaM anupashyataH asks shruti!!

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

On the other hand, once samyag-jnAna arises, the person in whose 
antaHkaraNa
these may arise, will naturally think, "these are by-products of the 
guNa-s
and they lie in the guNa-s." He or she will not identify with them, unlike
the ajnAnI who gets lost in the kAma and krodha. 

bhaskar :

prabhuji dont you think this natural thinking process would happen 
'before' getting kAma & krOdha in 'his' prakruti / antaHkaraNa??  how can 
a samyag jnAni who would see 'All in one' and ONE in all would 'first' get 
kAma & krOdha like any other ordinary mortal coil and 'then' think "Oh!! 
no, it is mere play of my prakruti, I should not get disturbed from it and 
I have to be witness to it, so sit and watch !"...Kindly clarify, whether 
jnAni's natural thinking process starts before getting kAma krOdha in his 
antaHkaraNa or after getting rAga dvesha in antaHkaraNa.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

And kAma in this case is not limited to sexual desire; it can be as simple 
as desire for the taste
of coffee in the morning or for a comfortable bed at night. It can even be 
for something as simple as clean water to bathe in, and anger or 
resentment at a situation may arise if the clean water is not easily or 
immediately available.

bhaskar :

Kindly pardon me for stretching this example....Can we extend these 
practical examples to jnAni's sexual inclinations also...I dont know why 
we should not!!??  we can always argue that due to his prArabdha karma or 
saMskAra or previous vAsana or avidyA lesha or current set of antaHkaraNa 
what he has in his body, he may get the agitation for not fulfulling his 
sexual desire 'in time' !!  If the trifle things like 'bed coffee' 'good 
bed' and hot & clean water  themselves can disturb his tranquility how can 
he maintain his serenity in more disturbing, powerful & demanding 
situations prabhuji??  I am not able to understand.

OTOH, geetaachArya says in somany verses in geeta like : duhkeshu 
anudvigna manAh, sukheshu vigata spruhaha, na prahrushyet priyam prApya, 
nodvijet prapyachApriyam, sukha dukhe same krutvA, labhAlabhau jayAjayav, 
yadrucchA lAbhasantushtO, tulyanindAstu teermouni, santushtO yenakena 
chit. etc. to clarify us that jnAni is dvamdvAteeta & would not 'move'& 
lose his tranquility in the unpredictable happenings of this world!!! 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

The jnAnI does not have to worry about correcting kAma and krodha because 
they don't really affect the Atman. It is only the ajnAnI who has to worry 
about taking corrective action, if he wants to attain jnAna.

bhaskar :

Again, once we decided that jnAni also would get kAma krOdha due to his 
prArabdha janita antaHkaraNa then we have to say that he has to take 
corrective action to subside it in 'his' antaHkaraNa itself... He cannot 
say I would get kAma & krOdha but I donot have to take any corrective 
action to tame it coz. it is only my prakrutidatta antaHkaraNa getting 
this bhAvana !!! Since he is still recognising HIS antaHkaraNa with 
parichiina chaitanya & individuality, he has to take care of his emotions 
through some corrective measures...I hope you would agree this prabhuji, 
because you are saying that in jnAni kAma & krOdha arise in 'HIS' mental 
factory. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

However, inasmuch as it is only the ajnAnI who has to become a jnAnI,
the control of kAma, krodha and the like become natural to the jnAnI.

bhaskar :

I dont think kAma krodha automatically subsides in this type of jnAni 
since he gets this kAma krOdha 'naturally' (like any other ordinary 
ajnAni)in the mind with the satyatva buddhi in the objective world...

Sri Vidya prabhuji:

The quality of such control and the duration between the effective control 
and arising of kAma/krodha are all totally variable and depend upon the 
prArabdha karma that each jnAnI's deha, indriya-s and prANa-s
bring to the table.

bhaskar :

prabhuji, kindly clarify if the duration is little bit long (say some 3 to 
5 minutes!!) between arising kAma or krOdha and effective control of the 
same with sAkshi bhAva, can this jnAni do whatever he wants & then blame 
it on his prArabdha janitya antaHkaraNa??  You know how dangerous it is if 
the duration is long!! He could even commit murders in that rage ..is it 
not??!! 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

The rising of these and other antaHkaraNa-vRtti-s is natural to the citta,
no matter how much citta-Suddhi is achieved prior to jnAna-prApti. 

bhaskar :

again, IMO, without satyatya buddhi in external objects these vrutties 
(especially kAma krodAdi wicked thoughts) cannot be originated in the 
mind..no matter whether it is the mind of the jnAni or the ajnAni.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

There is no rule that the citta be totally dead to all external stimuli 
beforehand.

bhaskar :

chitta need not be dead to maintain the unpertubed tranquility...the 
intuitive realization that there is nothing apart from HIM would suffice 
for his 'nirvikAratva'. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Of course, all of the above also revolves around who is a jnAnI and what
is samyag-jnAna. One can always redefine everything here so as to be
in accordance with what one's own conception of an ideal jnAnI is, which
is what I think many people are doing, consciously or otherwise. 

bhaskar :

Yes prabhuji, in someone's perception jnAni has avidyA lesha, due to 
prArabdha karma janita antaHkaraNa he would get kAma krOdhAdi wicked 
thoughts etc. and he would controls it automatically etc. and duration 
between krodha/kAma & its control may differ individual to individual as 
per paripakvate of his antaHkaraNa...Whereas in some others' perception 
jnAni is always ashareeri, guNAteeta, dvamdvAteeta, he maintains his 
tranquility & unmoved even in most disturbing situations coz. he is samyag 
darshi or samadarshi. 

Finally prabhuji, kindly dont think I am arguing with your goodself..If my 
paramaguruji Sri SSS himself had explained jnAni's lakshaNa like this, I 
would have posed my questions in the same manner!!  Because it is the only 
way I know to get the clarification...Hope you wont take it as 
offensive...
 

Best regards,
Vidyasankar

Your humble servant
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar